Are strategies relevant today in Modern Tennis?

[eliza]

January 2013 not even passed that you guys had TWO very interesting threads closed.
Aheaheahe, you truly cannot learn to argue civilly!
Happy 2013 to all of you!!!!!

Especially the TW moderators!

[luvforty]

yeah, internet anonymity brings out the best of us.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by eliza

January 2013 not even passed that you guys had TWO very interesting threads closed.
Aheaheahe, you truly cannot learn to argue civilly!
Happy 2013 to all of you!!!!!

Especially the TW moderators!

Hey Eliza welcome back!

What happened to Francesca? Why am I not seeing her in the AO?

Did you follow the Errani and Co win over the Williams yesterday?

[Wilander Fan]

Surprisingly, I noticed the biggest improvement to my game after strength training. You would not think so but a ton of knee bends and squats adds power and consistency and most of us have really pathetic back muscles which hold back the spin and power on the serve. If you can whip a heavy racket around with ease on serve and groundies, you are going to create some problems for people. I think now that most bad hitting days are not the result of bad strokes but feeling weak in the legs and upper body on a particular day.

[rkelley]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Yeah the whole level is different I suppose. Easy for me to say mental strength is not a strategy, but holding it together for 5 sets is quite a taxing situation.

I read something that Jim Courier said a while back about having the guts to hit the big forehand on the big points and how hard it is. Those guys (and gals) definitely feel it.

For me staying in any point can be mentally taxing. You've seen me and Cheetah hit. I'll tell you that for me, believing I can continue hitting that big (it's big for me anyway) shot after shot, and believing that I'm going to keep the ball in and keep the rally neutral until I'm ready to be aggressive, and deciding what ball is weak enough to try something more aggressive is really hard for me. After a couple of big shots you feel like it should be over - you want to mentally check out, but against better players that's rarely good enough. They can come up with answers, and you have to roll with it and keep the focus.

So Courier's comment really resonates with me.

[tennisdad65]

Honestly I did not see very much strategy in the 2 quarter finals last night.

Almagro & Berdych:
* hit a huge serve and put away the weak returns.
* backhand slice ~ 5% of the time (when in trouble or on the run)
* rip every ball for a winner or hit to a position where the opponent does not seem to be standing.
* or trade topspin groundies till the other guy misses.

I did not see directional's being employed.
I did not see a single surprise first serve kicker wide + volley put away.
Forehand approach shots were hit with topspin (ala Roddick).
Very few approaches on short balls to the backhand side.
Few Backhand approaches were short slices that sat up.
.....

So, I gotta go with Suresh on this one.

[Relinquis]

Originally Posted by tennisdad65

Honestly I did not see very much strategy in the 2 quarter finals last night.

Almagro & Berdych:
* hit a huge serve and put away the weak returns.
* backhand slice ~ 5% of the time (when in trouble or on the run)
* rip every ball for a winner or hit to a position where the opponent does not seem to be standing.
* or trade topspin groundies till the other guy misses.

I did not see directional's being employed.
I did not see a single surprise first serve kicker wide + volley put away.
Forehand approach shots were hit with topspin (ala Roddick).
Very few approaches on short balls to the backhand side.
Few Backhand approaches were short slices that sat up.
.....

So, I gotta go with Suresh on this one.

the part i've made bold is the opposite of the strategy Almagro was using successfully apart from his choke games. He postponed going for winners, was pinning Ferrer back by hitting at him using backhand to backhand, or backhand (almagro's) to inside-out forehand rallies until he had a good opening to change direction and get a short ball.

It's only during his choking games when he broke down and tried to end the point too soon with a winner, or try to go play ferrer's grinding, who-can-catch-the-ball-furthest-away-from-the-baseline-while-running game. The result of not following his strategy was repeatedly losing the chance to win the match.

He had a strategy and it was working, until he choked and didn't have the mental toughness to stick with it. Then he devolved into shot making/blasting/pure athleticism, which fell pray to Ferrer's strategy of high percentage, defensive grinding tennis.

Ferrer stuck to his strategy, even during the final set when Almagro was injured. He didn't end points quickly and was playing his grinding, low error/low aggressiveness, game of retrieval. It was so apparent that commentators, the crowd, viewers, were all frustrated that he wasn't going for winners and wasn't ending the points quickly, even though Almagro was barely walking to make his strokes. That's the kind of mental toughness you need to stick to a certain strategy.

[eliza]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Hey Eliza welcome back!

What happened to Francesca? Why am I not seeing her in the AO?

Did you follow the Errani and Co win over the Williams yesterday?

How are you and everybody here? Hope I can read very interesting and constructive posts, since I am (again!) sidelined, with loss of points and position that I am afraid I will never gain back............
Francesca has had a turbulent personal (which reflected in the professional) 2012, and the 2013 did not start well, neither. Hope she can re-group mentally. I also missed the match and win by Errani-Vinci: I know Errani has been "growing up"these few past months. You guys will agree many new players are coming up, all of whom (IMO) good players: it should be an awsome year for the WTA.

I will read on TW all comments on their shots and training (I recently read tennis Pros new training formats, that excludes long runs to favor jumps/agility=what about stamina?).

Have a great season!

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by eliza

How are you and everybody here? Hope I can read very interesting and constructive posts, since I am (again!) sidelined, with loss of points and position that I am afraid I will never gain back............
Francesca has had a turbulent personal (which reflected in the professional) 2012, and the 2013 did not start well, neither. Hope she can re-group mentally. I also missed the match and win by Errani-Vinci: I know Errani has been "growing up"these few past months. You guys will agree many new players are coming up, all of whom (IMO) good players: it should be an awsome year for the WTA.

I will read on TW all comments on their shots and training (I recently read tennis Pros new training formats, that excludes long runs to favor jumps/agility=what about stamina?).

Have a great season!

Are you back in Europe now?

What happened with Francesca? Some personal romantic matter?

I don't know about great new players, but the buzz is about the resurgence of US women's tennis, with Madison Keys and Sloane Stephens.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Any comments on the side issue I brought up about WTA serves in the OP?

Yeah, I'll bite.

I think your basic point (that WTA player serves suck) kind of sucks.

These women are some of the best athletes in the world. All of the top women (Serena, Azarenka, Sharapova, Stosur, Li, Radwanska) have serves that range from good enough to excellent. They have all figured out how to maximize their strengths on the serve, and I don't see why any more is required.

The fact that a man can serve faster is entirely beside the point. Indeed, you yourself complain that men's tennis is a big serve and a missed or desperate return. This is so boring for me that I don't even enjoy players like Berdych. Why criticize women for not being like men, especially when there are many things that get dull about the men's game?

Anyway . . .

Should rec players adopt the WTA approach? If they cannot serve (except for the Williams, Stosur), what is the issue? (I would also argue that Stosur has 2 second serves, not a real first serve.)

That bit about Stosur reveals your bias. It seems that you consider men the yardstick by which women should be measured. I see no reason to view it that way. Stosur's first serve is the one she hits first; her second is the one she hits second. There may be all kinds of reasons why they may are indistinguishable from the vantage point of your sofa. I'll bet if you asked her she could tell you that she goes for more or perhaps goes for more spectacular placement on the first. What's wrong with that?

Same for Sharapova, now that her shoulder has healed. She hits two fairly flat, aggressive serves. Top male pros tend to hit one fairly flat aggressive serve followed by a second serve that is a kick. There is nothing wrong with Sharapova's approach, as proven by her four slams. It's just different from what the guys do.

Why can't the best coaches in the world make their serve happen? There was this woman yesterday who was falling to the right as she desperately lunged at one far toss after another. So bad even my wife noticed it. But she somehow came across the ball from the right and managed to hit decent serves, like many club players do.

Players who have hitches in their serves will struggle. I also often wonder how anyone makes it to the pro level with a jacked up stroke of any kind, but they do. Tsonga's BH is an example. What the heck?

What about Ivanovic's serve? How unreliable is that?

Oh, I would say about as unreliable as Verdasco's serve in some years. 17 DFs in a match for him?

What is the lesson for rec players here?

The lesson for male rec players is that they will never, ever serve like the male pros, ever. They should consider adding way more spin to their serves for margin rather than trying to rock the radar gun and bragging about it here and ignoring their 25% first serve percentage.

[sureshs]

You said it yourself - all the top women have great serves. A level below them, it crumbles. In many cases, you can see that the serve was good, but it was a hasty adjustment to a bad toss.

These second tier players have also been playing since they were kids. Why are they so shaky?

And no, Verdie was never the embarrassment that Ivanovic was.

[Cindysphinx]

Well, how far down are you talking?

I think if you look at the seeded women at the AO, their serves are fine.

Now and then you will see a player with a jacked up (by pro standards) aspect of their game. Why pick on the serves of the women?

Let's talk about Tsonga's BH. Or how Del Potro's serve isn't the cannon you would expect for a guy 6'6"? Or Woz's FH? Or Almagro's head? Or Monfils . . . well, Monfils' everything?

[sureshs]

It is an absolute collapse, not a scaling down.

[Relinquis]

sureshs is probably just venting because he's not happy with his own serve. i suppose he (i'm assuming it's a he) can identify with some of the lesser serving women on tour. It's ok, I'm reworking my serve as well as i've returned to the game after a long absence (15 years or so). to be honest i wouldn't model after WTA as I am a man (wouldn't mind Serena's or Sharapova's), but I am receiving one-on-one coaching so my serve will probably be mine, but with good fundementals.

ivanovic's serve has improved, although her toss is still inconsistent. It's often said that Berdych has a WTA style toss, but his serve is good.

In terms of what you should learn, i think you should learn the basics of a flat serve, kick serve and slice serve. Use whichever you see fit depending on what you like and what you find most effective. having a consistent serve that you can place well is probably better than focusing on the max speed of your fastest serve.

Anyway, why don't we get back to talking strategy? Do you guys think about strategy in your own game? Do you use any?

[LeeD]

You have to, if you don't, you're an idiot.
My last match, playing a newbie 3rd year player with extreme speed and huge forehand, I knew better than to feed his forehand, and also since he could get to almost anything, it would be stupid of me to go close to the lines.
Then his second serve was weak, so I had to pressure it moving forwards and going for an approach to his backhand...or the threat of.
That's minimum strategy, I'd not hit with this guy before.

[sureshs]

You should not think when playing. It should all flow.

[luvforty]

i'd say at this moment on tv, there is not much strategy.

[dyldore]

Sitting on the baseline and hitting to where the opponent is not is a strategy. Going for your serve and then going for a winner if you get a weak reply is a strategy. Seriously, guys, anything you do on the court with any intention to win is a strategy. Moonballing, pushing, hitting only slices, w/e, they're all different types of strategies.

So get real, you don't really believe today's game has no strategy, you just don't like the strategy it does have. S&V is dead in the pros, sorry for your loss. But you wanna know the even better thing? You can still use it when you play! And no one is forcing you to watch these bore-fest five set matches, with no strategy lol.

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by dyldore

Sitting on the baseline and hitting to where the opponent is not is a strategy.

it's not a strategy if it can be figured out with 80 IQ points.

[Relinquis]

Originally Posted by luvforty

i'd say at this moment on tv, there is not much strategy.

The WTA match?