Are strategies relevant today in Modern Tennis?

[Relinquis]

luvforty,

you don't recalculate all of the scenarios every move (stroke / point) like you do in chess (would be very high on your spectrum, is there any sport that comes this close?!), but you do reassess what you're doing as the match progresses if your plan or intuition is not working. especially if your service games are under pressure as in the game you refer to. As you're discussing degree, for a sport, tennis has a lot of strategy. Can you think of many other sports that have more strategy?

Not to generalise based on your example match, but why didn't the player your refer to not hit some kick/slice 1st serves to be less predictable and make her main flat serves more effective as a result? That's a strategic option, just because it wasn't used in a particular match doesn't mean that there is little strategy in tennis. Would the opponent have responded by hitting more winner return of serves? Did the player think this far ahead and come to the conclusion that this strategy is sub-optimal? (we're in game theory territory now). See what I mean? Anyway, that is WTA. the mens game shows strategy in a clearer manner as they play longer matches and have more variety on tour. It's more obvious.

check out the mixed doubles semifinal being played now, or the final if you read this too late. Lots of strategy on display there. Nearly on a point by point basis as you can see due to the communication between teammates. You can't observe the internal conversation in singles and have to infer it from play.

[luvforty]

almost all other racket sports, squash, badminton, pingpong, have more strategy as they have less potential to power your way thru.

what other individual sports can you not power your way thru? too many.

dubs don't count.

[treblings]

Originally Posted by luvforty

almost all other racket sports, squash, badminton, pingpong, have more strategy as they have less potential to power your way thru.

what other individual sports can you not power your way thru? too many.

dubs don't count.

no they don´t. and i´m playing them all
all those sports, tennis included have strategy applied by expert players.
if you have a closed mind about that aspect, you are actually missing out on a great opportunity to improve your game.
and of course, doubles count. just harder to argue against strategy when you see players talking about it constantly, isn´t it
oh and just for the record, it´s tabletennis not pingpong

[Hi I'm Ray]

Originally Posted by sureshs

What I see in the ATP:

Unreturnable first serve
Serve which can just be returned weakly
Weak return is put away with a stroke to which it is humanly impossible to get
Forehand and backhand winners which are humanly impossible to get
Very simple strategy - put the ball where the other guy isn't, which covers drop shots, lobs, open court shots, and angled shots.
Maybe catch him wrong footed once in a while.

The entire game is based on statistical output of serve and its return, and after that the statistical nature of groundies - meaning you can't do anything with them most of the time if they are hit right.

The players don't seem to use their brains at all. Perhaps it is not needed? It is about serves, desperate returns, and the ability to run to get to a shot with no guarantee of success. My observation is that trying to "hit one more ball" seems to be a failure most of the time, with the small number of successes touted by commentators.

To summarize, big serve, a desperate return to hang in there, and devastating winners. Strategy seems to be an afterthought. I think most players are too exhausted with the big play to even think of strategy.

On the WTA:

Essentially the above, with the difference that getting the serve is a huge obstacle for the women. The ones with a smooth serve motion can be counted on one hand. Is something seriously screwed up about their serve training? Or is it just that the ATP men are just so much superior? I look at the average WTA service motion and I notice an errant toss and an awkward attempt to correct it, and the body parts moving awkwardly. They have somehow turned this into a high probability success event. Perhaps this is what male club players should aspire to? Just admit that ATP-style serves are not possible and focus on maximizing the returns on a flawed serve like the WTA?

Of course strategies are relevant, on pretty much every level.

[treblings]

Originally Posted by Hi I'm Ray

Of course strategies are relevant, on pretty much every level.

of course they are.
that´s the beauty of the tips/instruction forum that people argue against that obvious fact for twelve pages instead of using this thread as a chance to learn something new about their favourite sport

[Hi I'm Ray]

Originally Posted by treblings

of course they are.
that´s the beauty of the tips/instruction forum that people argue against that obvious fact for twelve pages instead of using this thread as a chance to learn something new about their favourite sport

The best part is saying it doesn't count because its "too simple/obvious"

[treblings]

Originally Posted by Hi I'm Ray

The best part is saying it doesn't count because its "too simple/obvious"

that´s the best

[luvforty]

yeah, next time I go to micky D's, I will tell the burger boy that he should be proud of his strategy

[Avles]

Originally Posted by Relinquis

As you're discussing degree, for a sport, tennis has a lot of strategy. Can you think of many other sports that have more strategy?

I think most team sports have more strategy-- American football is the most extreme example, but in most sports there's a question of deciding who plays, setting formations, running plays, etc... Individual sports don't have that kind of complexity.

But of course tennis has strategy, just like boxing has strategy. For example Chardy was running around his backhand over and over again in the portion of the Del Potro match I saw... sure looked like a strategy to me.

[hyperion99]

My opinion is that the Tennis is the most strategy implemented sport in the world.
Always thinking where they are going to hit to finish the point.
Using shot selection (strategy) to determine what is the best shot in that current situation.
Finding the opponents weakness and implementing a strategy how to exploit it.

Tennis is one most mental/physical sports in the world.

[Fuji]

Strategy is silly! Just bang cross court loopers until you get an U/E or a short ball and close. Anything beyond that is too much (for me) to think about while I play.

-Fuji

[dyldore]

Originally Posted by luvforty

yeah, next time I go to micky D's, I will tell the burger boy that he should be proud of his strategy

Heh, that's a gross oversimplification. Sounds like you have a lot of experience flippin' burgers, though.

[WildVolley]

There's obviously no strategy. For instance, Djokovic just hits the ball as hard as he can without caring about the direction. That's how he took apart his latest opponents.

[dyldore]

Originally Posted by WildVolley

There's obviously no strategy. For instance, Djokovic just hits the ball as hard as he can without caring about the direction. That's how he took apart his latest opponents.

If it looks that way to you, I'm sorry for your loss...lol. I guarantee you he has a clear purpose for the depth, direction, and pace of every shot he hits. But once again, tennis does not have much point-to-point strategy. I'm sure you have heard the commentators talk about "game plans". That is more the type of strategy that is used in tennis. You go in knowing your opponent is weaker off the BH side, or doesn't cover their forehand return of serve very well, or isn't good at net, or whatever it is, and you try to exploit that. If they can't handle pace, then you hit hard, but honestly, there aren't many top 30 men who can't handle pace lol.

[WildVolley]

Originally Posted by dyldore

If it looks that way to you, I'm sorry for your loss...lol. I guarantee you he has a clear purpose for the depth, direction, and pace of every shot he hits. But once again, tennis does not have much point-to-point strategy. I'm sure you have heard the commentators talk about "game plans". That is more the type of strategy that is used in tennis. You go in knowing your opponent is weaker off the BH side, or doesn't cover their forehand return of serve very well, or isn't good at net, or whatever it is, and you try to exploit that. If they can't handle pace, then you hit hard, but honestly, there aren't many top 30 men who can't handle pace lol.

I was being just a wee bit sarcastic. Sorry about that.

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by WildVolley

I was being just a wee bit sarcastic. Sorry about that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsIpQ7YguGE

4:35 - "I am on your side, but you are not" !!

by the way, I highly recommend more of Milton's clips and people will notice massive advancement in logical thinking

[dyldore]

Originally Posted by WildVolley

I was being just a wee bit sarcastic. Sorry about that.

I've only been on this forum for like two months, but am already used to people saying things that would normally be nonsense, but are serious and have "credibility" here. I just can't tell the difference anymore.

[Relinquis]

Originally Posted by luvforty

almost all other racket sports, squash, badminton, pingpong, have more strategy as they have less potential to power your way thru.

what other individual sports can you not power your way thru? too many.

dubs don't count.

are you trolling? stop wasting our time please.

In case you're not:

Can you give us an example of table tennis or badminton strategy that is more complex than tennis? or explain how strategy is more important in that game?

Squash has different angles and can be as strategic as tennis at times, especially as there are fewer winners past the intermediate level. Below the intermediate level, whoever has better skills usually wins emphatically in squash. More importantly, how are you able to see strategy in squash, but not tennis?

You bring up an interesting point with your "power your way through" comment. Tennis players regularly beat opponents with more powerful strokes, or who are more physically fit. It's exactly that tennis is a strategic game that allows them to do this. The corollary in squash is to say that it is a reflex game, which is, obviously, not the whole picture as the 50 year old at our club consistently demonstrates when he trounces me...

[luvforty]

no... sureshs was trolling, and you guys totally took the bait.

[WildVolley]

Originally Posted by dyldore

I've only been on this forum for like two months, but am already used to people saying things that would normally be nonsense, but are serious and have "credibility" here. I just can't tell the difference anymore.

No worries, I've done the same thing. I should have used an emoticon.

I was just thinking of Djokovic's latest display of brilliant strategy and control. I don't know how anyone could watch that match and think that strategy is dead at the highest level of play. Djokovic was moving his opponent side-to-side and working for the kill. His opponent didn't have the kill shots, but then there's always strategy involved in keeping the ball in a position that an opponent with kill shots can't destroy.