What can be done to reduce the cheating?

[Anyone4tennis?]

Originally Posted by SoCal10s

maybe this idea may help .record matches and review cheaters and mis-conduct who have a 'reputation'.. . with a small investment from the USTA and a little note to all parents and players participating in some tournaments ... something like this::

"" the USTA is doing and in house experiment trying to curb cheating "" we will be recording certain matches and will b reviewing them"" ""if anyone is found guilty of cheating,you will be suspended from future participation for 6 months ect. ect..::: --- (some of you better writers can elaborate on this)...

I think this would scare the crap out of some cheaters and straighten up a bit..

I think you are right. This is a great idea. However, instead of being experimental, it should be done permanently . . . ASAP. It also might be a good idea to have a few undercover officials floating around as well watching over matches.

[Chemist]

Originally Posted by andfor

In junior tennis your idea 1 will never happen and idea 2 will never happen. Sounds good, but unrealistic.

One boy in our section got suspended for 3 months because of cheating. He was a lot better in the last sectional championship.

My son usually calls out the score before he serves; he often asks his opponent to confirm the score before receiving serves. I don't recall he has ever got cheated on the scores.

I watched 7-8 matches at the past winter nationals for B18, witnessed many playing out balls; saw only one bad call. Cheating was much worse when my son played 12s. So, kids usually are getting better as they get older.

[SoCal10s]

Originally Posted by Anyone4tennis?

I think you are right. This is a great idea. However, instead of being experimental, it should be done permanently . . . ASAP. It also might be a good idea to have a few undercover officials floating around as well watching over matches.

undercover umpires still need tapes to show cheating when they go on trial.. I'm pretty sure the cheaters's parents will protest and raise hell .. electronics is so cheap now, hi-tech is everywhere..

[andfor]

Originally Posted by SoCal10s

undercover umpires still need tapes to show cheating when they go on trial.. I'm pretty sure the cheaters's parents will protest and raise hell .. electronics is so cheap now, hi-tech is everywhere..

Agreed. This whole notion is polyanic. The USTA will never go to this length. The concept is Rediculous and ripe for law suits. All the *****ing about how bad the refs are and now folks are condoning the USTA add extra policing of junior tennis? Could you imaging the uproar when your kid has been secretly busted by Big Brother USTA?

Originally Posted by Chemist

One boy in our section got suspended for 3 months because of cheating. He was a lot better in the last sectional championship.

My son usually calls out the score before he serves; he often asks his opponent to confirm the score before receiving serves. I don't recall he has ever got cheated on the scores.

I watched 7-8 matches at the past winter nationals for B18, witnessed many playing out balls; saw only one bad call. Cheating was much worse when my son played 12s. So, kids usually are getting better as they get older.

What was the exact nature of the kids suspension? Did you see the suspension letter? I'm not challenging you, this sounds like a typical code violation suspension associated with bad behavior. Would like to hear more details though if it was for cheating.

[SoCal10s]

USTA is like the NBA,NFL and all the other sports entity .. it's usually hands off from gov't .. they all police their own .. nothing like having a legal monopoly where you can do anything and get away with it..

[andfor]

^^^Yea, just have shot spot. If that's too expensive go with the secret cameras and judgement calls of those extra employees you have to hire reviewing those tapes in the secret USTA film basement. Anyone could be targeted. Just start sanctioning little kids all over the place. Guilty until proven innocent. Then when they protest and appear before the USTA cheater council, gather up all all those voluteers who want to step up and demonize little kids trying to learn the game for making questionable line calls.

This isn't a game, it's life, a business and the USTA plays for keeps.

[chalkflewup]

Three different profiles that junior tennis players fit into...
1. Those that cheat all the time.
2. Those that whine about cheating all the time.
3. The rest of the tennis population.

IMHO #3 represents 99% of the pie.

[SoCal10s]

^^^ you know it.. tennis is serious business ... that's why crazy parents turn their kids into cheater critters and fight with each other in the stands ... top tennis coaches getting close to $100/hour ... hey man it's not only tennis ,it's life .... haha

[TCF]

==========================

[Chemist]

Originally Posted by andfor

What was the exact nature of the kids suspension? Did you see the suspension letter? I'm not challenging you, this sounds like a typical code violation suspension associated with bad behavior. Would like to hear more details though if it was for cheating.

The kid posted the letter of suspension on his Facebook. It said that it was due to the behavior of the kid and his coach, like you predicted. However, aside from making bad calls and getting reversed by umpires, the kid was not the worst on the court. So, probably, he also received point penalty for making repeated bad calls. In a national open semifinal match, the chair umpire overruled two bad calls on a boy in one game and he warned that the another overrule (the 3rd) would result in point penalty. I think a kid gets suspended after receiving 10 penalty points (in our section).

The following is from 2012 Friend at Court regarding making bad calls.

FAC Comment IV.D-15: What should an official do when a player has been overruled more than once during a match? At some point, an official may caution the player (or team) that future overrules will be penalized under the Point Penalty System as unsportsmanlike conduct. There is no hard and fast rule as to how many overrules is “too many.” An official should consider all factors including:
• the age and experience of the player;
• the closeness of the calls;
• the importance of the points on which the overrules have occurred;
• the factors that might have caused the player to miss the call (For example, a sudden gust of wind blew the ball in at the last minute versus apparent outright cheating or a retaliatory call); and
• the frequency with which the overrules occur.
An official should consider cautioning a player if there have been two overrules during the same set. Once an official cautions a player that subsequent overrules will be penalized under the Point Penalty System, the official must penalize subsequent overrules.

[coaching32yrs]

I have never whined about cheating, never accused a player, never filed a complaint and I never will do any of the these things. But to say 99% of the juniors do not cheat astonishes me, having watched 1000s of junior matches. Cheating is frequent and widespread, a part of the junior landscape. I have witnessed a parent advising his top 10 player to cheat. I have witnessed 2 top 10 players discuss and agree on a scheme for cheating. This is just the tip of the iceberg of everything I have witnessed. No sour grapes. Let them cheat. I and my players don't care. Maybe its because I'm old, harmless, laid back- kids and parents talk to me.

[chalkflewup]

Originally Posted by coaching32yrs

I have never whined about cheating, never accused a player, never filed a complaint and I never will do any of the these things. But to say 99% of the juniors do not cheat astonishes me, having watched 1000s of junior matches. Cheating is frequent and widespread, a part of the junior landscape. I have witnessed a parent advising his top 10 player to cheat. I have witnessed 2 top 10 players discuss and agree on a scheme for cheating. This is just the tip of the iceberg of everything I have witnessed. No sour grapes. Let them cheat. I and my players don't care. Maybe its because I'm old, harmless, laid back- kids and parents talk to me.

OK coach, then give me a number. We all have cheating stories but each of those are hugely magnified. Anyway, toss out a number. What percentage of the kids cheat?

[andfor]

Originally Posted by chalkflewup

OK coach, then give me a number. We all have cheating stories but each of those are hugely magnified. Anyway, toss out a number. What percentage of the kids cheat?

Can't wait for this answer. Not holding my breath though.

Originally Posted by coaching32yrs

I have never whined about cheating, never accused a player, never filed a complaint and I never will do any of the these things. But to say 99% of the juniors do not cheat astonishes me, having watched 1000s of junior matches. Cheating is frequent and widespread, a part of the junior landscape. I have witnessed a parent advising his top 10 player to cheat. I have witnessed 2 top 10 players discuss and agree on a scheme for cheating. This is just the tip of the iceberg of everything I have witnessed. No sour grapes. Let them cheat. I and my players don't care. Maybe its because I'm old, harmless, laid back- kids and parents talk to me.

You know what's astonishing? Your freaking inability to do math. You have watched 1000's of matches and can only came up with 3 examples? Maybe in your fantasy world percentages figure differently. Based on the amount of kids who compete under USTA, even at the tip of your fantasy iceberg you have a long way to go to get past more than 1% of kids cheat. I defy you to come up with a number greater than 1% of tennis playing kids are premeditated cheaters.

[coaching32yrs]

Not going to argue with you. My comments are based on what I have observed. Lansdorp is a well respected coach who rarely speaks or writes publicly. He wrote an article about cheating in junior tennis being a major problem. Read or watch the speech by the pres of Univ of Virginia on cheating. It is very widespread among the current generation of young people, much more than among past generations. She explains the reasons why.

[chalkflewup]

Originally Posted by coaching32yrs

Not going to argue with you. My comments are based on what I have observed. Lansdorp is a well respected coach who rarely speaks or writes publicly. He wrote an article about cheating in junior tennis being a major problem. Read or watch the speech by the pres of Univ of Virginia on cheating. It is very widespread among the current generation of young people, much more than among past generations. She explains the reasons why.

I'm not asking you to argue. Just give me a number not a few names. The Lansdorp article is dated. I am willing to bet that I have attended many more national junior tournaments than Lansdorp has in recent years. And I don't care what the Pres of the UVA has to say about cheating -- that's not junior tennis. I stand by my number.

[coaching32yrs]

Originally Posted by chalkflewup

I'm not asking you to argue. Just give me a number not a few names. The Lansdorp article is dated. I am willing to bet that I have attended many more national junior tournaments than Lansdorp has in recent years. And I don't care what the Pres of the UVA has to say about cheating -- that's not junior tennis. I stand by my number.

.

You don't care what I say, fair enough. You don't care what Landsdorp said in 2008 because it is "dated". Not fair. You don't care what a University president said about cheating by this generation, backed up by facts and statistics. Not fair. Here are Landsdorp's words for those of you who haven't seen them:
"So let me start by making a few comments about a topic no one ever talks about publicly: the enormous amount of cheating now going on in junior tennis. Maybe the most shocking thing is that it’s so prevalent in the younger divisions, the 14 and unders, and even the 12s.

I’m not talking about an occasional bad call here and there. I’m talking about a culture that almost sees cheating as part of the game, almost as a strategy to use at certain times to win matches. Somehow that is now ok."

I agree with Landsdorp. The culture goes beyond occasional bad line calls.
What Azarenka did against Stephens I would define as cheating. Others may not and believe it was within the rules.

[Chemist]

My son has already played almost 1,000 matches and I have watched additional 1,000 matches. He has played about 100 boys in our section.

4 are known cheaters that kids and parents are often talking about. Only 2 parents of these 4 kids are known to support cheating.

Another 10 (half of them are highly ranked) or so are seen to make 1-2 bad calls a match. Cheating back was often the excuse.

Only 4-5 boys have reputation of playing out balls and they win sportsmanship awards.

However, my son lost only three matches because of bad calls. One was last year's clay court super national in FL that stunk the most.

The statistics would vary from section to section. In my observation, the kids from Mid*West are generally the best. Umpires were on the court only during the tiebreaks.

[Chemist]

Originally Posted by coaching32yrs

.

You don't care what I say, fair enough. You don't care what Landsdorp said in 2008 because it is "dated". Not fair. You don't care what a University president said about cheating by this generation, backed up by facts and statistics. Not fair. Here are Landsdorp's words for those of you who haven't seen them:
"So let me start by making a few comments about a topic no one ever talks about publicly: the enormous amount of cheating now going on in junior tennis. Maybe the most shocking thing is that it’s so prevalent in the younger divisions, the 14 and unders, and even the 12s.

I’m not talking about an occasional bad call here and there. I’m talking about a culture that almost sees cheating as part of the game, almost as a strategy to use at certain times to win matches. Somehow that is now ok."

I agree with Landsdorp. The culture goes beyond occasional bad line calls.
What Azarenka did against Stephens I would define as cheating. Others may not and believe it was within the rules.

Luckily, kids generally become better as they get older.

[andfor]

Originally Posted by Chemist

My son has already played almost 1,000 matches and I have watched additional 1,000 matches. He has played about 100 boys in our section.

4 are known cheaters that kids and parents are often talking about. Only 2 parents of these 4 kids are known to support cheating.

Another 10 (half of them are highly ranked) or so are seen to make 1-2 bad calls a match. Cheating back was often the excuse.

Only 4-5 boys have reputation of playing out balls and they win sportsmanship awards.

However, my son lost only three matches because of bad calls. One was last year's clay court super national in FL that stunk the most.

The statistics would vary from section to section. In my observation, the kids from Mid*West are generally the best. Umpires were on the court only during the tiebreaks.

I was going to type a long post. Respectfully, this is wasted time and energy and totally counterproductive trying to figure out who's a cheater and who's not.

One bad call give them a second look and ask them if they are sure. Second bad call, tell them next bad one you are getting a line jude. Third bad call get a line judge. This is time tested and works. Players need to read and know the rules. They should also be coached that if anything out of the ordinary breaks up the flow of the match, get a line judge. Plain and simple.

Just play tennis. Leave the excuses behind. You'll be better tennis player in the long-run.

[chalkflewup]

Now it all makes sense. UVA has been recruiting cheaters, hence all the recent success!