Top 10 women players of all time at this point- where would you place Serena

[PDJ]

Sorry the post above was in response to cevertfan. Apologies

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by PDJ

I too am struggling with Williams being placed in the top 5 & whilst i appreciate the arguments made for this i don't think they are enough to topple those that most include above her.
Re the Jordan match, by the time john Lloyd had asked the AELTC for a day's grace it was too late as the Order of Play had already been released. A rule that remains today.

Most do place Serena atleast in the top 5. Even Navratilova who hates Serena said publicly Serena was top 5 all time after Wimbledon 2009, and she has obviously achieved a ton since then. The only players a reasonable sum of people might place above her are Graf, Court, Navratilova, and Evert. Basically nobody argues people like King, Seles, Connolly, or Lenglen being above her at this point. The only other one some argue might be Wills. If you have Serena outside the top 5 though you are in the minority, not the majority.

[PDJ]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Most do place Serena atleast in the top 5. Even Navratilova who hates Serena said publicly Serena was top 5 all time after Wimbledon 2009, and she has obviously achieved a ton since then. The only players a reasonable sum of people might place above her are Graf, Court, Navratilova, and Evert. Basically nobody argues people like King, Seles, Connolly, or Lenglen being above her at this point. The only other one some argue might be Wills. If you have Serena outside the top 5 though you are in the minority, not the majority.

Sorry but i was basing my comment on those who had listed their top ten in this thread, not external commentators ie navratilova. And the majority, albeit marginally, place Williams outside the top ten. I, who have not as yet, listed my personal top ten, would not put her in my top 5. But I'll compile my list and see where she falls. But i also will put Evert above navratilova. Your previous case for this has definitely influenced me

[PDJ]

Originally Posted by PDJ

Sorry but i was basing my comment on those who had listed their top ten in this thread, not external commentators ie navratilova. And the majority, albeit marginally, place Williams outside the top ten. I, who have not as yet, listed my personal top ten, would not put her in my top 5. But I'll compile my list and see where she falls. But i also will put Evert above navratilova. Your previous case for this has definitely influenced me

Durr ! I meant placed Williams outside top 5!

[BTURNER]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Most do place Serena atleast in the top 5. Even Navratilova who hates Serena said publicly Serena was top 5 all time after Wimbledon 2009, and she has obviously achieved a ton since then. The only players a reasonable sum of people might place above her are Graf, Court, Navratilova, and Evert. Basically nobody argues people like King, Seles, Connolly, or Lenglen being above her at this point. The only other one some argue might be Wills. If you have Serena outside the top 5 though you are in the minority, not the majority.

I won't unless she shows something more impressive on red clay. Its her demon, and she has to conquer her demon. More Wimbledons and Opens are icing on a cake, which is already two inches thick with buttercream.

[AtomicForehand]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Even Navratilova who hates Serena said publicly Serena was top 5 all time after Wimbledon 2009, and she has obviously achieved a ton since then.

Navratilova hates Serena? How do you know?

[The-Champ]

agree with what Mac says here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kpytW5cqDk

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by AtomicForehand

Navratilova hates Serena? How do you know?

Navratilova hates Graf and Serena both. Graf because most people considered Graf and not her any longer the GOAT when Graf retired and since they were never friendly to begin with; and Serena since Serena is not reverentul to past greats, and since she also is annoyed by alot of the recent Serena GOAT talk as already firmly behind Graf that would bump her even further from the GOAT position she likes to see herself in.

[BTURNER]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Navratilova hates Graf and Serena both. Graf because most people considered Graf and not her any longer the GOAT when Graf retired and since they were never friendly to begin with; and Serena since Serena is not reverentul to past greats, and since she also is annoyed by alot of the recent Serena GOAT talk as already firmly behind Graf that would bump her even further from the GOAT position she likes to see herself in.

This is how you know who Navratilova hates, and evidently why. Wow! Martina never graduated from Middle School.

[AtomicForehand]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Navratilova hates Graf and Serena both. Graf because most people considered Graf and not her any longer the GOAT when Graf retired and since they were never friendly to begin with; and Serena since Serena is not reverentul to past greats, and since she also is annoyed by alot of the recent Serena GOAT talk as already firmly behind Graf that would bump her even further from the GOAT position she likes to see herself in.

Evidence for the above?

[NadalAgassi]

Watch her commentate matches with Graf and Serena in it, that says enough. She has even had to defend her comments on Graf (mid 90s) and Serena (early 2000s especialy) to the BBC team during Wimbledon, they created that much controversy. At Wimbledon 96 her anti Graf comments were all over the new and she had to be interviewed by BBC 3 different days to defend them, here is one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FKRcoy2F-o

Richard Williams also called her a racist after her kid glove remarks because they are black comment publised in a Time Magazine article in late 2001. One would think being an open lesbian at a time that wasnt exactly readily accepted would make Serena sensitive towards minority issues in tennis such as race, but apparently not. I dont think Navratilova is racist btw, but she let her blind hatred of Serena make her temporarily forget what is politically acceptable to say in todays society. On the other hand Navratilova absolute loves Seles, Sabatini, Capriati, Hingis, and cant get your tongue out of their behinds for a moment when they play. She was also immediately fired by CBS after only ONE year after the 95 U.S Open for her heavily biased pro Seles and anti Graf commentary. Because of the extreme bias of her work even today she cant hold down a decent commentary job to save her life (despite that she very actively searches, the fact she is willing to work for whatever secondary network will hire her) while lesser lights like her former doubles partner Pam Shriver and contemporary journeywomen peer of the late 70s and early 80s Mary Carillo are hugely in demand anywhere they want to go.

[BTURNER]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Watch her commentate matches with Graf and Serena in it, that says enough. She has even had to defend her comments on Graf (mid 90s) and Serena (early 2000s especialy) to the BBC team during Wimbledon, they created that much controversy. At Wimbledon 96 her anti Graf comments were all over the new and she had to be interviewed by BBC 3 different days to defend them, here is one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FKRcoy2F-o

Richard Williams also called her a racist after her kid glove remarks because they are black comment publised in a Time Magazine article in late 2001. One would think being an open lesbian at a time that wasnt exactly readily accepted would make Serena sensitive towards minority issues in tennis such as race, but apparently not. I dont think Navratilova is racist btw, but she let her blind hatred of Serena make her temporarily forget what is politically acceptable to say in todays society. On the other hand Navratilova absolute loves Seles, Sabatini, Capriati, Hingis, and cant get your tongue out of their behinds for a moment when they play. She was also immediately fired by CBS after only ONE year after the 95 U.S Open for her heavily biased pro Seles and anti Graf commentary. Because of the extreme bias of her work even today she cant hold down a decent commentary job to save her life (despite that she very actively searches, the fact she is willing to work for whatever secondary network will hire her) while lesser lights like her former doubles partner Pam Shriver and contemporary journeywomen peer of the late 70s and early 80s Mary Carillo are hugely in demand anywhere they want to go.

This post says nothing credible about who Martina may hate or what agenda she may have.

[chandler bing]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Watch her commentate matches with Graf and Serena in it, that says enough. She has even had to defend her comments on Graf (mid 90s) and Serena (early 2000s especialy) to the BBC team during Wimbledon, they created that much controversy. At Wimbledon 96 her anti Graf comments were all over the new and she had to be interviewed by BBC 3 different days to defend them, here is one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FKRcoy2F-o

Richard Williams also called her a racist after her kid glove remarks because they are black comment publised in a Time Magazine article in late 2001. One would think being an open lesbian at a time that wasnt exactly readily accepted would make Serena sensitive towards minority issues in tennis such as race, but apparently not. I dont think Navratilova is racist btw, but she let her blind hatred of Serena make her temporarily forget what is politically acceptable to say in todays society. On the other hand Navratilova absolute loves Seles, Sabatini, Capriati, Hingis, and cant get your tongue out of their behinds for a moment when they play. She was also immediately fired by CBS after only ONE year after the 95 U.S Open for her heavily biased pro Seles and anti Graf commentary. Because of the extreme bias of her work even today she cant hold down a decent commentary job to save her life (despite that she very actively searches, the fact she is willing to work for whatever secondary network will hire her) while lesser lights like her former doubles partner Pam Shriver and contemporary journeywomen peer of the late 70s and early 80s Mary Carillo are hugely in demand anywhere they want to go.

Ah Richard Williams...there's a sane and balanced individual

[kiki]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Watch her commentate matches with Graf and Serena in it, that says enough. She has even had to defend her comments on Graf (mid 90s) and Serena (early 2000s especialy) to the BBC team during Wimbledon, they created that much controversy. At Wimbledon 96 her anti Graf comments were all over the new and she had to be interviewed by BBC 3 different days to defend them, here is one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FKRcoy2F-o

Richard Williams also called her a racist after her kid glove remarks because they are black comment publised in a Time Magazine article in late 2001. One would think being an open lesbian at a time that wasnt exactly readily accepted would make Serena sensitive towards minority issues in tennis such as race, but apparently not. I dont think Navratilova is racist btw, but she let her blind hatred of Serena make her temporarily forget what is politically acceptable to say in todays society. On the other hand Navratilova absolute loves Seles, Sabatini, Capriati, Hingis, and cant get your tongue out of their behinds for a moment when they play. She was also immediately fired by CBS after only ONE year after the 95 U.S Open for her heavily biased pro Seles and anti Graf commentary. Because of the extreme bias of her work even today she cant hold down a decent commentary job to save her life (despite that she very actively searches, the fact she is willing to work for whatever secondary network will hire her) while lesser lights like her former doubles partner Pam Shriver and contemporary journeywomen peer of the late 70s and early 80s Mary Carillo are hugely in demand anywhere they want to go.

Considering Hingis comments on *****, it is pretty amazing

[Goosehead]

serena has had an amazing career but she won 15 majors..

folk on here turn her into the new jeesus and act as if she won 25 majors

[chandler bing]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Watch her commentate matches with Graf and Serena in it, that says enough. She has even had to defend her comments on Graf (mid 90s) and Serena (early 2000s especialy) to the BBC team during Wimbledon, they created that much controversy. At Wimbledon 96 her anti Graf comments were all over the new and she had to be interviewed by BBC 3 different days to defend them, here is one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FKRcoy2F-o

Richard Williams also called her a racist after her kid glove remarks because they are black comment publised in a Time Magazine article in late 2001. One would think being an open lesbian at a time that wasnt exactly readily accepted would make Serena sensitive towards minority issues in tennis such as race, but apparently not. I dont think Navratilova is racist btw, but she let her blind hatred of Serena make her temporarily forget what is politically acceptable to say in todays society. On the other hand Navratilova absolute loves Seles, Sabatini, Capriati, Hingis, and cant get your tongue out of their behinds for a moment when they play. She was also immediately fired by CBS after only ONE year after the 95 U.S Open for her heavily biased pro Seles and anti Graf commentary. Because of the extreme bias of her work even today she cant hold down a decent commentary job to save her life (despite that she very actively searches, the fact she is willing to work for whatever secondary network will hire her) while lesser lights like her former doubles partner Pam Shriver and contemporary journeywomen peer of the late 70s and early 80s Mary Carillo are hugely in demand anywhere they want to go.

Your hatred of Navratilova is duly noted.

Just out of curiosity, what she ever do to you?

[dominikk1985]

Originally Posted by Goosehead

serena has had an amazing career but she won 15 majors..

folk on here turn her into the new jeesus and act as if she won 25 majors

for some people pre 1990 majors or tournaments in general don't count. for that reason the 2 CYGS from laver don't count and connors gazllion tournament wins also don't count.

[Xavier G]

Court, Navratilova, Graf, Evert, King, Serena would be my top 6. Serena had a very impressive last six months of 2012 and she may deserve to go higher in any rankings. She may be above Evert and King already, but they won so many tournaments and had such great consistency (especially Chrissie) over so many years, more so than Williams, I think.

[CEvertFan]

Originally Posted by Xavier G

Court, Navratilova, Graf, Evert, King, Serena would be my top 6. Serena had a very impressive last six months of 2012 and she may deserve to go higher in any rankings. She may be above Evert and King already, but they won so many tournaments and had such great consistency (especially Chrissie) over so many years, more so than Williams, I think.

How could you possibly even consider putting her above Evert when Chris has 18 majors to Serena's 15, even if you are only basing your criteria just on majors won?? I'm not even going to go into how many years Evert was #1, how many more weeks Evert was #1, total singles titles, consistent dominance and all the other criteria that judging the very best should be based upon - it's not ALL about the majors.


Bottom line is Serena is one of the all time greats but her career isn't nearly as sterling as the best four ever of Graf, Navratilova, Evert and Court. Yes, she had a good second half of 2012 but even that wasn't enough to return her to #1 in the world, which in this very weak era of women's tennis she should have a lock on and be dominating like no other woman before her since when she's healthy no one can seem to even come close to beating her. So why hasn't she stepped up - she either can't or won't but either answer tarnishes her legacy and makes it less than it could have been.

[NadalAgassi]

Best ever rankings arent just based on major wins. Otherwise Court would be the GOAT, as her achievements far trump Navratilova in both singles and doubles, and even trump Graf in singles, yet most rank Court down in 3rd behind Graf and Navratilova, or these days many even 4th behind Graf, Navratilova, and Serena.

While I defended my ranking of Evert over Navratilova earlier in this thread, which I know heavily goes against the norm, I would also say there is no way Evert could be logically argued as the GOAT for the simple fact she was made to look so hopeless vs Navratilova in 83-84 and then again by Graf at the end of her career. From different angles she could be argued as being over anyone, well anyone except Court and Graf I guess, I see no arguments for Evert possibly being over either of them, even based on pure stats and nothing else, although some might feel differently. However whoever she is ranked above, she cant be ranked over everyone else and at the very top, for the simple truth of how badly she was beaten up by a couple of rivals for a significnat period of time. Yes I know she was past her prime when Graf went on that long run of dominance, but Graf started it at age 16, way before her prime as well, and Evert herself was losing several matches, including a Wimbledon semifinal, to someone like 33 year old Virginia Wade at the apex of her career (someone even baby Evert mostly dominated in Wade`s prime which shows the age detriment for an older player is way overhyped at times), so age alone cant be an excuse for her complete ineptitude against Graf from 86-89, and obviously her way too one sided for any would be GOAT dominance at the hands of peak Martina in 83-84. 3rd or 4th all time would be the absolute max ranking for Evert, regardless who is put in front of her (Graf being the only compulsory undisputed one to be over her IMO), and she could also be ranked as low as 6th or 7th for those who value peak level play, dominance, success vs biggest rivals, and equality of great play in singles and doubles.

Why would someone rank Serena over Evert. Well maybe for the simple obvious fact if they played in their mutual primes Serena would win most of the matches, and that Serena before she turns 36 atleast would never be as dominated by anyone, no matter how great they were or were playing, as Evert was by both Navratilova and Graf for a stretch of time. Even in years like 2005-2006 when she was a terrible player after the 05 AO, and in all fairness to Chris way worse a player than Chris was at any point in her career, through sheer power and weaponary and talent, would still find a way to be more competitive vs Navratilova and Graf than Chris was through those periods if she was forced to play them about 10 times. Her pride and sheer explosiveness and raw talent would find her raise her game for them to keep most matches competitive and score the odd win somehow, something Evert mostly playing excellent tennis and fully in shape still couldnt do vs peak Martina and peak Graf for quite awhile. Also people credit Court and Navratilova for their doubles careers, well atleast some do, and Serena also had a fabulous doubles career, vs Graf and Evert who had a barely existent one. Serena also has won slams over a 13 year stretch, pretty much making her already number 1 all time in longevity, as the previous longest in the post World War 11 years was 12, and she is still going strong as we speak. To add to all that Serena won many of her slams in what probably was the deepest womens field in history in 1999-2005.