wrist snap continued

[TheLambsheadrep]

I will post on the topspin stuff later, this took a while haha

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by TheLambsheadrep

Even sometimes the elbow bend is initially present, and then the arm becomes straight at some point, then right before contact the elbow bends again (Murray).

funny you should mention murray. i was going to list him last night as sort of an exception. his forehand is kind of unique. his wrist at the end of the takeback is not in a neutral position which is why he doesn't get the racquet flip at the and and it's one reason he has less topspin than others. however he does bend the arm earlier than you said. it's hard to tell in the vid you posted. look at these vids. If you freeze it you can see he bends right away after the first forward movement. Then the ssc kicks in and his arm catches up. By contact his arm and body are in sync and make contact as a unit. These are great vids of murray. His swing looks great here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YerH0-8n_0w

I do see, thought, that Novak outstretches his arm back horizontally about the same as I do. So is having the arm stretched back near horizontal fine, and is having the take back from your elbow, not the shoulder, the way to doing it correctly?

Yes, but look how they get the racquet in ptd. You don't do that. Your wrist is kind of locked in place. Plus look how loose their wrist is. The racquet flies back as they start going forward. this is the stretch that throws the racquet forward.

Also look at their upper arm from the shoulder to the elbow. This area stays with the torso the whole time. This is important. The torso rotates, the upper arm moves with it and the loose forearm and wrist lags behind. This pull creates the stretch and it 'catches up' just before contact. Your upper arm moves before your torso on it's own then your torso rotates but your arm is moving independently and passes your torso. It's 'disconnected'.

The vid you posted of Novac is not indicative of his match play form. I think he was just starting to warm up there. This video here is better and more closely matches his match form. Notice his wrist is in a neutral position during takeback. It's not flexed, extended or deviated and because of his grip is goes up high and twisted like that. But his wrist is totally neutral. Also notice his upper arm stays with the torso during the forward swing.
This is what people mean when they say 'lead with the elbow'. The elbow moves forward ahead of the wrist during the swing. The wrist and racquet lag behind. Then when rotation slows and/or is facing the net the forearm is 'whipped' around to contact. It's more like a whip type action. Not really a 'push' or a 'swing'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWOVWARCxbU

The pronation of the racquet back early in the back swing was something I saw from a Jeff Salzenstein video on youtube about Novak’s take back and thought I’d try it out.

Yes i know that video. I disagree with it. But I love Jeff. If you look at pros the only ones who have that kind of takeback are players with an extreme semi grip. I have the same grip. Nishikori has that grip and takeback also. You won't be able to find a semi-western or eastern grip pro w/ that takeback.

Is the tension created with the Novak pronation what’s cutting down on my ssc (even though I am seeing my wrist back before contact, I’m guessing there needs to be more than that and the wrist bend isn’t the only sign of the ssc)?

You need to have the face slightly higher than the wrist and pointing more to the side fence. usually at a 45degree ish angle. This position will cause the racquet to flip down and back when you move forward. Look at all those vids. They all get the face into this position just before going forward. Your racquet points directly to the backfence and is not facing the ground so all of that potential ssc is killed right there.

go to virtualtennisacademy.com. sign up. it's free. then watch the 'millenium forehand' video. it's great. he goes into this step by step and he's and atp/wta coach. Watch that vid and also read his forehand article.

[TheLambsheadrep]

this is another slow mo video I watched of Murray and should have posted the first time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5guJYUKgd0 you can see the bend-straight-bend right from the first forehand.

I'm going to look over your Novak video tonight, thanks for that. I am also going to sign up for that website and post back on what I learn. Btw, Murray does have a SW forehand like Agassi and Blake, correct? Should the fact that his stroke is "an exception" discourage me from trying to learn from it? He would be a more modern example of what I could be doing, where Agassi has more of a classic stroke. Blake tends to lean toward Agassi with strokes I think, too. Any other good SW players that you think I should study based on my video?

[TheLambsheadrep]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

but you do your take back and you rotate but you can see while you are rotating your arm catches up and passes your rotation. they never move together. you can really see it on the side view at the end. your arm goes right past your body. you're loosing a lot of oomph right there.

just to get the feel you might want to try making your take back much shorter. just for experimenting make it very short like fed's. it will feel uncomfortable but try it for like 20 strokes. once you figure out how to make contact like that you will see you will have much more power. Then you can adjust things to your liking.

If your take back is shorter then when you rotate your arm will have 'room to breath' and will be pulled by the rotation and there it will stretch and give you the ssc action.

I do want to talk about top spin like I said before, but I have been thinking about this today - for the initial part of the short take back, would you say that you are trying to perform an external rotation of the shoulder with or without incorporating elbow movement? In the pro videos I linked in the thread plus others available, during their take backs I can't tell 100% if even the same player will always try to make the racquet follow a pendulum motion (approximately, and from external rotation of the shoulder) up with the elbow acting like the fixed point/pivot point (being stationary as much as possible, any motion backward is from body rotation), or if the elbow is being pulled back (elbow in the gut motion, going however much or little they want the elbow back) as external rotation of the shoulder still takes place. In short - as the racquet goes up and back during the initial part of the take back via the shoulder, should the elbow also help bring the racquet back and then down?

Also, even though this is not quoted, I'm gonna mention neutral stance. I see Fed has it a lot in casual hitting, and I think I do it more when being casual too, but I have a feeling he opens up a lot more than I do in real play. It's just a habit of mine, but I think it also plays a part in limiting ssc - with a more open stance, you can load up the back/outside foot and twist the body, letting the uncoiling of the body whip the forehand around to contact. In my video, I'm seeing that I am facing sideways which is good, but have little to no coiling. I am going to work on coiling sideways instead of just facing sideways, I think that should help, right?

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by TheLambsheadrep

I do want to talk about top spin like I said before, but I have been thinking about this today - for the initial part of the short take back, would you say that you are trying to perform an external rotation of the shoulder with or without incorporating elbow movement? In the pro videos I linked in the thread plus others available, during their take backs I can't tell 100% if even the same player will always try to make the racquet follow a pendulum motion (approximately, and from external rotation of the shoulder) up with the elbow acting like the fixed point/pivot point (being stationary as much as possible, any motion backward is from body rotation), or if the elbow is being pulled back (elbow in the gut motion, going however much or little they want the elbow back) as external rotation of the shoulder still takes place. In short - as the racquet goes up and back during the initial part of the take back via the shoulder, should the elbow also help bring the racquet back and then down?

Also, even though this is not quoted, I'm gonna mention closed stance. I see Fed has it a lot in casual hitting, and I think I do it more when being casual too, but I have a feeling he opens up a lot more than I do in real play. It's just a habit of mine, but I think it also plays a part in limiting ssc - with a more open stance, you can load up the back/outside foot and twist the body, letting the uncoiling of the body whip the forehand around to contact. In my video, I'm seeing that I am facing sideways which is good, but have little to no coiling. I am going to work on coiling sideways instead of just facing sideways, I think that should help, right?

I don't understand what you're saying in the 1st paragraph. Are you sure you're talking about external shoulder rotation? Maybe you can word it differently.
Also this is addressed in the video on the site i told you about.

Yes you don't coil in your strokes. you just turn sideways. the shoulders should be turned more than the hips.
You should be getting power from the body and control from the arm. maybe about 70/30 or even 80/20 body/arm

[TheLambsheadrep]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

I don't understand what you're saying in the 1st paragraph. Are you sure you're talking about external shoulder rotation? Maybe you can word it differently.
Also this is addressed in the video on the site i told you about.

I will check the website and get back to you, I know it came out really confusing but it's just how I saw it in my head.

Btw, I think TheCheese answered a question I had on what determines a shot being straight armed or bent. This is what he said and how I responded (my response has to do with how you guessed I hit balls long. I don't do it often when I go for topspin, but sometimes when I flatten a shot out it takes off):

TheCheese - What is important is whether you are using pronation vs supination in the transition between the takeback and forward swing.


Me - TheCheese, that makes perfect sense actually. You saw on my video how much I was pronating on the take back, plus this is confirmed by pro slow mo videos, so thanks!

I was wondering before this if supination from bad timing and/ or bad technique was causing some of my seemed-to-be regular shots to hit the back fence once in a while. After watching the video (9 seconds in) it appears that it's just me getting too under the ball and swinging across my body, which seems to create an upwards swing path. Could supination still have a hand in this?

[Cheetah]

you're position @ :09s looks pretty good. I think they were launched because of the face angle at contact. swing path is fine. this is one reason i think you hit too late. if contact was made more out in front there would have more brushing action. You should also try to work on closing the racquet face. That would happen naturally if you used your body to bring the racquet around instead of your arm because if you notice if you pause it at 09s the racquet is in the correct position. face is closed. buttcap pointed. if you would have just rotated keeping that structure then that would have been a good hit.

now i now why i thought you had a conservative grip.
Here's a good tip: change your grip style. That grip style you are using is not the best for the type of swing you are going for. I'm not talking about semiwestern/eastern etc. semi is fine. I'm referring to the way you hold your semi.
I highly recommend you grip the racquet all the way down to the end of the buttcap and don't spread your fingers the way you are doing. The way you are holding it is more conducive to an old school neutral stance linear swing powered by the arm. You are choking up and your fingers are spread.

If you hold the racquet all the way at the bottom with the heel pad actually extending past the buttcap in more of a fist like grip you get noticeably more racquet head speed, spin, pronation and deviation. Just try like 20 shadow swings with it. You will feel uncomfortable for a bit like you have no control. but after a few swings you will adjust as you will see that the racquet moves more freely and most importantly the racquet face will move in a more direct correspondence to how your hand moves. it will mirror what your hand does better than what you are doing now. Hard to explain but it gives more control with less effort (provided you don't arm the ball). You just have to adapt a little and figure out where to put the pressure. Also this grip let's the wrist flex more. the handle doesn't get in the way. So if you wanted u could give a touch of flex for some extra power on some shots. but if don't want to flex the wrist then this grip forces / encourages you to swing with more body so that the wrist stays laid back at contact without you having to manually hold the wrist back with tension. It stays loose. It's a much better grip imo.

If you look at the pros almost all of them hold the racquet all the down and even a little past the buttcap (exceptions would be verdasco) and they all hold it more in a fist type shape. Give it a try.

[TheLambsheadrep]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

you're position @ :09s looks pretty good. I think they were launched because of the face angle at contact. swing path is fine. this is one reason i think you hit too late. if contact was made more out in front there would have more brushing action. You should also try to work on closing the racquet face. That would happen naturally if you used your body to bring the racquet around instead of your arm because if you notice if you pause it at 09s the racquet is in the correct position. face is closed. buttcap pointed. if you would have just rotated keeping that structure then that would have been a good hit.

now i now why i thought you had a conservative grip.
Here's a good tip: change your grip style. That grip style you are using is not the best for the type of swing you are going for. I'm not talking about semiwestern/eastern etc. semi is fine. I'm referring to the way you hold your semi.
I highly recommend you grip the racquet all the way down to the end of the buttcap and don't spread your fingers the way you are doing. The way you are holding it is more conducive to an old school neutral stance linear swing powered by the arm. You are choking up and your fingers are spread.

If you hold the racquet all the way at the bottom with the heel pad actually extending past the buttcap in more of a fist like grip you get noticeably more racquet head speed, spin, pronation and deviation. Just try like 20 shadow swings with it. You will feel uncomfortable for a bit like you have no control. but after a few swings you will adjust as you will see that the racquet moves more freely and most importantly the racquet face will move in a more direct correspondence to how your hand moves. it will mirror what your hand does better than what you are doing now. Hard to explain but it gives more control with less effort (provided you don't arm the ball). You just have to adapt a little and figure out where to put the pressure. Also this grip let's the wrist flex more. the handle doesn't get in the way. So if you wanted u could give a touch of flex for some extra power on some shots. but if don't want to flex the wrist then this grip forces / encourages you to swing with more body so that the wrist stays laid back at contact without you having to manually hold the wrist back with tension. It stays loose. It's a much better grip imo.

If you look at the pros almost all of them hold the racquet all the down and even a little past the buttcap (exceptions would be verdasco) and they all hold it more in a fist type shape. Give it a try.

I will check this out, thanks again! Btw, I went to the website but the pages are giving me problems, is this the same article? http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=70102

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by TheLambsheadrep

I will check this out, thanks again! Btw, I went to the website but the pages are giving me problems, is this the same article? http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=70102

no. virtualtennisacademy.com

[TheLambsheadrep]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

no. virtualtennisacademy.com

I was able to make an account, but when I click login or any of the other links I get blank pages. I will delete my cookies and keep trying

[TheLambsheadrep]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Yes, but look how they get the racquet in ptd. You don't do that. Your wrist is kind of locked in place. Plus look how loose their wrist is. The racquet flies back as they start going forward. this is the stretch that throws the racquet forward.

Real quick - what's ptd.? And I've been watching more videos, and pros with a large double bend seem to have little to no scc. here's one good example when you break it into slow motion http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/s...enterSide1.mov . I'd say it's because the forearm is not "dead" and left hanging to get whipped up to speed, and because it seems that with a double bend the arm above the elbow and the shoulders/torso move as one unit, essentially removing the top half (and starting half) of the whip. Am I just seeing this because it's two in the morning?haha

[Cheetah]

pat the dog.

nope. they have a lot of ssc. it's not related to how much or what type of bend they have.

agassi's form is old school. pros don't hit like that today.
agassi's spin rate is less than half of what pros get now.

monfils http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkUSTi4U7Io
kohlschreiber http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9cR_S7jakA
djoko http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8AJYfkJ4hc
tsonga http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1uQcr6xSvs
li na http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL1Gt3vfeac
ryan harrison http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mxg_qBTuq4U
nishikori http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do3-geZv9WQ

[TheLambsheadrep]

Ok, Agassi was prob the wrong pro to check out since we're in the realm of modern tennis, my bad. It does look to me, though, like the more bent/tucked in the elbow remains throughout the back swing, the less ssc there is (which I would think means it's somewhat grip related. Hopefully I'll be right on some part of this and not go 0 for 100 haha)

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by TheLambsheadrep

Ok, Agassi was prob the wrong pro to check out since we're in the realm of modern tennis, my bad. It does look to me, though, like the more bent/tucked in the elbow remains throughout the back swing, the less ssc there is (which I would think means it's somewhat grip related. Hopefully I'll be right on some part of this and not go 0 for 100 haha)

western grip kohlscreiber http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9cR_S7jakA
eastern grip fed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCm6OIjbPr4

opposite ends of the grip spectrum. both have extreme ssc.
it's not related to grip. it's position in set up and loose arm/wrist

[TheLambsheadrep]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

western grip kohlscreiber http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9cR_S7jakA
eastern grip fed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCm6OIjbPr4

opposite ends of the grip spectrum. both have extreme ssc.
it's not related to grip. it's position in set up and loose arm/wrist

But Fed goes straight arm, so an eastern with a straight arm forehand may be an exception of grip since any grip with a straight arm forehand still has full extension of the elbow away from the body. I could be more specific and just say it looks like the more bent/tucked in the elbow remains throughout the back swing, the less ssc there appears to be, is that more accurate? Or is that still too much of a classic stroke mindset?

[Cheetah]

tsonga's elbow is tucked in extremely close. it almost touches his ribs. lots of ssc. semi western grip. nadal has a straight arm western grip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNyfckDtRHM

[Cheetah]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dihL...1&feature=fvwp

[TheLambsheadrep]

What about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CrWFui1jW4

and I think this is very similar your first tsonga video with more of his early stroke http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VVCiegIGQY I see the wrist gets good whip, but not seeing the same from his forearm (which looks to me like it moves right with the arm above the elbow, which is moving right with the shoulder). the second video describes what I was saying before about half the whip being gone - I know he's crushing the ball but it looks like it's bc the power from his leg push off (he's getting ups!). His arm's kinda lookin' like a dolphin flipper to me there. Either way, this would only be one modern forehand example of what I was saying, so maybe, maybe not

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by TheLambsheadrep

What about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CrWFui1jW4

and I think this is very similar your first tsonga video with more of his early stroke http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VVCiegIGQY I see the wrist gets good whip, but not seeing the same from his forearm (which looks to me like it moves right with the arm above the elbow, which is moving right with the shoulder). the second video describes what I was saying before about half the whip being gone - I know he's crushing the ball but it looks like it's bc the power from his leg push off (he's getting ups!). His arm's kinda lookin' like a dolphin flipper to me there. Either way, this would only be one modern forehand example of what I was saying, so maybe, maybe not

he doesn't get in ptd position and he also doesn't pronate much. that's why.

[TheLambsheadrep]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

you're position @ :09s looks pretty good. I think they were launched because of the face angle at contact. swing path is fine. this is one reason i think you hit too late. if contact was made more out in front there would have more brushing action. You should also try to work on closing the racquet face. That would happen naturally if you used your body to bring the racquet around instead of your arm because if you notice if you pause it at 09s the racquet is in the correct position. face is closed. buttcap pointed. if you would have just rotated keeping that structure then that would have been a good hit.

I am going to hit against the wall again tomorrow and take it up a notch above casual. Like I said before, I believe I do open my stance up and get the knees bent more in a real point (you can find plenty of vids with pros warming up and having very neutral/easy going strokes), but if I want to make these adjustments into real point habits, you gotta play like they're real points. Based on what we've discussed, I'm assuming you would agree that an open stance gives me better upper body rotation potential, and that should help eliminate the fence ball like what 09s would have been.

Btw, I got the video links working on virtualtennisacademy, so I'll be watching the millennium movie after my next post or two