Lower rated player playing line 1 singles

[schmke]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

As a result, they complain about weird things. "I had to play someone who was playing up -- that's not gonna help me get to 4.0!" "I don't want to play Court Three, it won't help me get to 4.0!" "I don't want a weak partner, I'm trying to get to 4.0!" "I don't want to play combo because combo doesn't count toward my rating and I want to get to 4.0!"

I might change "weird" to "silly" As I know you know Cindy, none of these statements are really true. There is no match where the only possible result is your rating going down. If a player is that much better than the opponent(s), the score will indicate that.

That said, certain matches do present a greater opportunity to improve a rating and in general that is playing tougher opponents (quotes 1 and 2, although we know with stacking, court 3 isn't necessarily the weakest team). But an actually fallacy is that you need a strong partner to improve your rating (quote 3).

The truth is that you give yourself the greatest opportunity to improve your rating by playing with the weakest partner possible as the expected result is lower and thus there is more upside, and even a loss could improve the losing teams ratings. Playing with a strong partner can actually hurt your rating if you don't win by enough. Your ladies looking to get bumped up should be looking for the weakest partner that they can carry to a win and that will help both of them a lot.

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Good lord. Stop worrying about the computer and just work on your game play with whatever opponent or partner shows up. There is no way to "trick" the computer into moving you up other than winning matches at your level convincingly or being truly competitive at the next level. And if you do move up before your game genuinely justifies it, you will be miserable and will get bumped back down anyway.

Now this is absolutely true. The primary thing anyone can control as far as the computer goes is the result of the match. Regardless of who you play or who you play with, your rating will be its highest if you improve your game and thus improve your results.

[Govnor]

Originally Posted by dizzlmcwizzl

The other part of this is that if you are a good, but not excellent, you want to frequently adjust your lineup to keep others from stacking against you.

By changing who your line 1 singles or dubs players are from match to match you make it harder to have someone else stack the lineup against you.

Unless your team is lock to win till sectionals then it is in your best interest to be unpredictable.

That makes sense.

Sounds like the world of USTA team tennis is not for me, to be honest. I just want to play against people at or about my level, guaranteed. My time is too precious to be wasting like that.

[dizzlmcwizzl]

Originally Posted by Govnor

That makes sense.

Sounds like the world of USTA team tennis is not for me, to be honest. I just want to play against people at or about my level, guaranteed. My time is too precious to be wasting like that.

To be honest ... let the captain worry about all this.

I find there is no better place to get reasonably competitive matches, against folks you do not already know, than in USTA league play.

[Buford T Justice]

Originally Posted by Govnor

I just want to play against people at or about my level, guaranteed. My time is too precious to be wasting like that.

www.ultimatetennis.com

If they are in your area......very good top notch league. No BS stuff, flexibility, high quality players, etc.

The rating system is very straightforward, the formulas for ratings and moving up are completely transparent, etc.

[Govnor]

Originally Posted by dizzlmcwizzl

To be honest ... let the captain worry about all this.

I find there is no better place to get reasonably competitive matches, against folks you do not already know, than in USTA league play.

That's good. I know you're a guy that likes a good match! I'm always happy to hear people are getting worthwhile matches and not wasting their time.

[Govnor]

Originally Posted by Buford T Justice

www.ultimatetennis.com

If they are in your area......very good top notch league. No BS stuff, flexibility, high quality players, etc.

The rating system is very straightforward, the formulas for ratings and moving up are completely transparent, etc.

Unfortunately not in my area!!!

[Mongolmike]

Originally Posted by Ipster

I'm glad the team won the match. You hit the nail on the head understanding where I was coming from. I was frustrated because I've been working hard and hoping to improve my dynamic rating this year and this stuff just doesn't help.

Keep fighting, keep practicing and you'll get there. Go into each match with the intention of winning AND of learning. Sometimes you learn something about your game, sometimes you learn something about yourself. Embrace the learning curve and you'll do fine.

[wrxinsc]

I Captain and have for a few years. I play/captain 4.0 and play up to 4.5 level.

If my team is deeply talented and players are readily available I play "straight up" all season. If my team is not deep but I have a few very strong players I mix up my line ups all year long (mostly randomly) so there isn't a pattern to exploit. This is common from local league all the way through states and sectionals from my experience.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by schmke

The truth is that you give yourself the greatest opportunity to improve your rating by playing with the weakest partner possible as the expected result is lower and thus there is more upside, and even a loss could improve the losing teams ratings. Playing with a strong partner can actually hurt your rating if you don't win by enough. Your ladies looking to get bumped up should be looking for the weakest partner that they can carry to a win and that will help both of them a lot.

Fat chance!

Bottom line: I don't know anyone who successfully "managed" their rating to achieve a higher rating.

By that I mean that the people I know who are desperate to move up but do not channel that desperation into better strokes and fitness seem to fail year after year.

When one of my tennis buddies is bumped up, I can often tell you with great specificity what they are now doing differently to yield better results. It shows in their results, it shows in their play.

For purposes of this thread . . . OP says she gave up two games to a player who is possibly at the very bottom of the next lowest rating level. Yikes.

The ladies I know who cannot seem to bump up tend to "leak" games to vastly inferior opponents. Sometimes the problem is that they cannot handle the lack of pace or wonky spins that the inferior player is sending. Sometimes they cannot handle the pressure or play with a lead. That "game leakage" -- not their partners, court assignment, etc. -- is why they do not move up.

Clearly, someone who is 3.0-3.5 should not lose games to someone who rarely wins games at the 2.5 level. If OP's rating dips because of those two games she coughed up, well . . . that shows OP has work to do on her game and needs to serve up a double-bagel next time.

[SwankPeRFection]

Cindy, have you seen some of the **** that 2.5's hit? That's enough to make anyone pull their hair out. If you have players who can't move up and who cannot play against player like that, then you need to tell them to stop playing low *** league teams. If you're a 3.5, play at 4.0 if you want to move up. There is no reason why a 3.5 person should be playing anything lower than 4.0 if they want to move up. Playing 3.5 is just asking for problems, more-so if the person wanting to move up cannot mentally deal with the junkballers and pushers out there in the 3.5 and below leagues.

[Maui19]

Stacking stinks. It has ruined many a match for me. Just the other day I played the #1 court and we won 6-0, 6-0. I don't think the other team won 10 pts in the whole match. What a big freakin' waste of time. It completely wrecks league tennis when it happens. You captains that think this is somehow funny can kiss my arse.

[dizzlmcwizzl]

Originally Posted by schmke

The truth is that you give yourself the greatest opportunity to improve your rating by playing with the weakest partner possible as the expected result is lower and thus there is more upside, and even a loss could improve the losing teams ratings.

While this may be true mathematically chances are improving your rating in this way will only change your rating in ways in which we cannot see. IE ... not changing levels.

The players that move up levels fall into to distinct categories ...

1) players that play up and are competitive
2) players that dominate thier level for a season or more.

It is extremely unusual to see someone move up a level with a subpar record becasue their partner was a weakling.

[dizzlmcwizzl]

Originally Posted by Maui19

Stacking stinks. It has ruined many a match for me. Just the other day I played the #1 court and we won 6-0, 6-0. I don't think the other team won 10 pts in the whole match. What a big freakin' waste of time. It completely wrecks league tennis when it happens. You captains that think this is somehow funny can kiss my arse.

I agree that I would rather not have stacking ... but the USTA is not prepared to stop it so they ignore it. By doing so, the USTA forces captains to vary their lineups so that they are not the victims of stacking themselves.

Someone once suggested an app to be placed on your smart phone, whereby each team enters their lineup and the computer spits out the appropriate matchups based on player ratings.

[schmke]

Originally Posted by dizzlmcwizzl

I agree that I would rather not have stacking ... but the USTA is not prepared to stop it so they ignore it. By doing so, the USTA forces captains to vary their lineups so that they are not the victims of stacking themselves.

Someone once suggested an app to be placed on your smart phone, whereby each team enters their lineup and the computer spits out the appropriate matchups based on player ratings.

With my estimated ratings, perhaps I'll write this app

But we all know that ratings don't tell the whole story as well. Someone who plays predominantly singles may not play doubles at the same level and vice-versa. And with doubles, some play better/worse with different partners. And specific match-ups of strengths/weaknesses against the opponent that day often override who is "better".

That said, having some rules about not being able to play the lesser NTRP (combined for doubles) on a lower number court does have merit. And of course, the app you suggest could go farther to require that the courts are ordered strongest to weakest according to the ratings. Even with the previous paragraph I wrote, this would likely still result in more competitive matches than letting the sometime bizarre stacking we see continue.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by SwankPeRFection

If you have players who can't move up and who cannot play against player like that, then you need to tell them to stop playing low *** league teams. If you're a 3.5, play at 4.0 if you want to move up. There is no reason why a 3.5 person should be playing anything lower than 4.0 if they want to move up. Playing 3.5 is just asking for problems, more-so if the person wanting to move up cannot mentally deal with the junkballers and pushers out there in the 3.5 and below leagues.

I disagree, rather strongly actually.

If you are 3.5 and wish to be 4.0, but you cannot dominate 3.0/3.5 players because they hit so much junk and crap and garbage, then you seriously need to work on your technique and you are not ready to move up.

Brace yourselves for this little rant that is coming, because here it comes.

Ladies and others who want to move up and are within the sound of my voice:

You need to knock it off. If you cannot beat someone who does not hit with pace, you are not as good as you think you are.

If you miss because someone is pushing or lobbing or hitting like a 2.5, the problem is that *you* have crap technique.

If you do manage to claw your way up to the next level before learning to deal with junkballers, pushers and slow-ballers, do you know what awaits you? Opponents who will test you to see if you can handle junk, that's what. If you cannot, you will see junk all night.

I can tell you that if someone is beating my best strokes, one of the first things I will try is taking off pace, especially on balls my opponent needs to volley. Their poor technique will be my best friend.

If you want to move up, play your level and play it well. Play up also. But play your level and *crush* anyone who dares to get on the same court with you and stink the place up.

Sorry for the rant, but as a captain of 7.5 combo and 4.0 ladies, I just can't take it anymore. The next one of my doubles pairs that comes off the court after a loss to a couple of pushers, complaining that their opponent "didn't give them any pace," is gonna get an earful from me.

[Maui19]

Who in their right mind wants to play junkballers? Seriously. I can beat junkballers all day long, but who wants that grind? It's not fun, it's not rewarding, it's the dark underbelly of tennis. So why would anyone willfully choose to play them if there is another path?

[asimple]

The concept of pusher has always amused me a bit. If you are a good player you sooner or later need to learn how to beat this type of game. It might be annoying at times, but its part of the game. I am currently at a 4.0 level and this is one of the things I find annoying about this level. There is a huge huge tendency to overhit. The right shot in many situations is to loop the ball back into play not go for the 5% percentage blasting shot. I have never been close to being called a pusher, but have noticed recently some 4.0s and even 4.5s self destructing after just getting one or two extra balls back.

In terms of stacking, I am currently one of the only 4.0s on a 4.5+ 40s team. I recently played number 1 singles against a 5.0 player ahead of many 4.5s and a 5.0. In this particular case I was the right choice for the match as I am currently in good form and was one of the stronger players available. I actually lost in a pretty close 3 set match. I am kind of on the extreme as I am a pretty strong 4.0, but I have also seen other similar cases in matches. I think people should just get over it and play tennis. There might be a match or two won do to these tactics but in the end they even out.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by Maui19

Who in their right mind wants to play junkballers? Seriously. I can beat junkballers all day long, but who wants that grind? It's not fun, it's not rewarding, it's the dark underbelly of tennis. So why would anyone willfully choose to play them if there is another path?

If you are a 3.5, say, and you can beat 3.0 and 3.5 junkballers all day long, you will be launched into 4.0 in no time flat.

If you instead make too many errors because you cannot handle their junk and soft shots, then you do not belong at 4.0. IMHO.

Geez. I used to get destroyed by junk ballers in 3.5 doubles all the time. It was so frustrating, watching myself die of a thousand cuts as they hacked away at the ball.

Then I fixed my strokes and I love hitting that slow, high cheese. I cannot remember the last time I was even threatened in doubles against such players. Lo and behold, I was bumped to 4.0. Go figure.

[Maui19]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

If you are a 3.5, say, and you can beat 3.0 and 3.5 junkballers all day long, you will be launched into 4.0 in no time flat.

Not true, at least not true among men. (And 3.0s? They can't keep the ball in play for 3 consecutive shots in a match.)

[Overdrive]

I felt that everyone here is speaking another language as I have no idea about the customs of being in a USTA team.

I'm in a team myself, but don't really care about being 4.5 or 5.0 or any of that crap.

Everyone across the court from me will be treated and respected as an worthy opponent regardless of skill. If your bad, your loss will be swift. If your good, your loss with be tedious and painful.