Pointers for Men in Mixed Doubles

[travlerajm]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Here's a guy who understands mixed. It is a different animal completely, and it requires different skills. Most guys, I think, just play the way they always play and then get annoyed when they don't win.

My new 8.0 partner (a 4.0 guy) gets it. I do not know how he plays men's mixed. When he partners, he considers it a mission straight from God to be a huge nuisance at the net. He misses a lot of volleys. It doesn't matter. By the time he is finished daring the opponents to get the ball past him, they have missed enough to offset any volleys he might miss.


Uh oh. Travlrejm? You OK?

I hope nobody targeted him because he was winning too many 8.0 matches . . . .

Former open player without much time to practice these days. So The rusty erratic serve (and the double faults that come with it) keep me from getting bumped up to 5.0. But the erratic serve is "serviceable" in 8.0 - so I consider myself an 8.0 specialist! I actually prefer 8.0 to "regular doubles" for another reason: because success depends much more on knowing the unconventional optimum strategy for each of the 8 types of points. It's a much more cerebral game, and very few teams 'get it'. The best teams are the ones where the guy is really strong, and both players know exactly what their roles are.

My partners always enjoy the fact that I "call the pitches" on their serves. Instead of signals, I like to use a quick huddle between points to tell her which side she should cover (her forehand or her backhand). If I'm playing with a 3.5 partner whose forehand is much stronger than her backhand (which is often the case), then I use Aussie exclusively when she serves from the ad (for the reason above), and then call a poach only about 1/3 of the time (so she plays forehand side most of the time). By telling her where she needs to go (instead of telling her which direction I'm going to go) it simplifies the task in my partner's mind, and she can execute better. You'd be surprised how much difference this makes for mind of the typical 3.5 lady - it's one less think to process, so she can focus more on getting a good serve in.

On deuce, when my partner serves, I like to start from the deuce side, but have my partner start next to the center line sometimes. This makes it easy for us to do a planned poach as a team (again I 'call the pitch' in the huddle and tell her which side to cover), and even if the called pitch is not to poach, having me start from the conventional deuce side makes it easy for me to execute a delayed poach-on-contact because I get to move left to right and smack a forehand volley, my more vicious poaching side. In most cases, the opponent returning from the deuce will be the lady, so the poach-on-contact strategy is usually effective.

[Cindysphinx]

Travlerajm, Will you marry me?

(Sorry, LeeD, I have found another!).

Honestly, I can count on two fingers the guys I have played with who understand Aussie and are willing to use it when the time is right.

OK, Seriously . . . one of my friends told me of a problem she was having in mixed, and I'd like opinions on it.

My friend is a 4.0 playing 8.0 mixed. She is a very consistent player, very old school. Conti grip on the FH. Likes to let the ball fall really low on the FH. Hits with not so much pace on serve, FH and BH.

Anyway, she was playing this match against a good 4.0 guy who was active at net. By her account (after eating a bagel), she simply could not get the ball past the guy when returning the woman's serve. The only service return that worked was if she hit a slice that tagged the doubles alley and stayed low. Everything else (crosscourt, DTL, lob) he crushed.

My advice to her was to stand as close to the service line as humanly possible and bunt the ball quickly crosscourt. That was my only idea.

Any other ideas?

[pennc94]

I don't recommend working on strokes during a match, but since her match is over I recommend she learn how to hit a proper stroke. Continental grips on groundstrokes are not going to get her anywhere. Letting the ball drop low at contact is going to be trouble. Your friend needs a coach not a way to compensate for technical deficiencies in her game.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by pennc94

I don't recommend working on strokes during a match, but since her match is over I recommend she learn how to hit a proper stroke. Continental grips on groundstrokes are not going to get her anywhere. Letting the ball drop low at contact is going to be trouble. Your friend needs a coach not a way to compensate for technical deficiencies in her game.

Not gonna happen.

She has played this way for 20 years, and she simply is not interested in going backward to learn a new way to play. She watched my entire process of changing to SW grip, and she made the conscious decision not to do the same.

Her strokes are her strokes, and she is going to take them to her grave. There must be a way to handle the poaching opponent with a 4.0 woman's Conti strokes. Right?

[pennc94]

Your friend is being stubborn and that's a shame. It sounds like she recognizes her deficiencies are the root cause of her trouble, but she is unwilling to correct them. Yes it may set her back some in the near term, but her long term prospects would likely be better. Hard to believe she would prefer the wall she has hit.

I suppose she can hope not to play against an active volleyer. No way to know this ahead of time. Mix her returns with some lobs and hope for the best. Have her partner also play back so the net player doesn't crush her partner.

[themitchmann]

Cindy,
I suggest having her mix in lobs, both down the line and cross court. I think your idea of taking the return early was a good thought as well.

[travlerajm]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Travlerajm, Will you marry me?

(Sorry, LeeD, I have found another!).

Honestly, I can count on two fingers the guys I have played with who understand Aussie and are willing to use it when the time is right.

OK, Seriously . . . one of my friends told me of a problem she was having in mixed, and I'd like opinions on it.

My friend is a 4.0 playing 8.0 mixed. She is a very consistent player, very old school. Conti grip on the FH. Likes to let the ball fall really low on the FH. Hits with not so much pace on serve, FH and BH.

Anyway, she was playing this match against a good 4.0 guy who was active at net. By her account (after eating a bagel), she simply could not get the ball past the guy when returning the woman's serve. The only service return that worked was if she hit a slice that tagged the doubles alley and stayed low. Everything else (crosscourt, DTL, lob) he crushed.

My advice to her was to stand as close to the service line as humanly possible and bunt the ball quickly crosscourt. That was my only idea.

Any other ideas?

Cyndy,
As someone who enjoys making life difficult for gals trying to hit returns past me, I'll let you in on a little secret: Guys like me like take away the easy shot and give you the hard shots. Your advice to crowd the service line was the right advice - if she doesn't do that she has no prayer to get it past me. But if she crowds the line, she has options.

To get it past me, she doesn't have to hit it super hard, but it has to be accurate.

Option 1. If you're going to get it past me cross-court, it's got to be a really sharp angle cross court (one that lands in the doubles alley inside the service line). If you aim for the typical deeper crosscourt return that you use with the lady friends, that's an easy poach winner for me (it crosses too close to the center of the court, which is my territory to defend). Again, if you don't have a lot of pace, you MUST crowd the service line to have a chance to execute this shot against me, otherwise I have time to cross and still reach it.

Option 2. Keep me honest. You've got to make me think about staying. Use the down the line alley at least once per game against an active netman. Believe it or not, a soft shot can work great here, because higher over the net is the optimum trajectory (aim 8 feet or so over the net). It's a lower trajectory than you would hit a lob, but the extra height means I have to be completely underneath it to reach it (I can't reach sideways), effectively meaning I have to move about 4 extra feet to my left to reach it than if the shot was hit with only 3 feet of net clearance. The same principle works for passing shots in singles too.

Option 3. Keep me honest with the lob. Active poachers like to cheat close to the net if you let us. Lob once a game to keep me honest. Even you miss your lob target and get it pounded, it will make me think about it and reduce my range a little. Don't be afraid to try it again.

As a 4.5 guy, when I'm returning in the same situation against an active netman, I can usually watch the netguy out of the corner of my eye and be patient, wait for him to make a move, then guide it past him. As a 4.0 gal, that may be trickier, but you might try practicing the hold-and-poke strategy, because it's not as hard as to get the hang of it as you might think. I see a lot of 4.0 guys who take the opposite approach and overhit trying to bang it past me in this situation - the hold-and-poke strategy is the percentage play - there's always somewhere I can't quite cover.

By "poke" I refer to any type of compact groundstroke.

[Cindysphinx]

A follow-up, if I might.

When I face an active male poacher, I like to lob sometimes. Trouble is, I cannot set up for a topspin lob and execute it if I crowd the service line. I need some time. Also, the closer I am to the net, the greater the chance I will knock it long.

If I dropped back to the baseline to receive serve because I was planning to lob, would you notice that I was no longer crowding the net and anticipate the lob?

[themitchmann]

You can chip the lob. It's still effective at taking the net player out of the equation, but you might not win the point on that particular shot.

[dennis10is]

Originally Posted by Nostradamus

What is the best way to get the hottest girl as the doubles partner ?

Tell her that you'll consider being her dubs partner if she go down the line on you.

[travlerajm]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

A follow-up, if I might.

When I face an active male poacher, I like to lob sometimes. Trouble is, I cannot set up for a topspin lob and execute it if I crowd the service line. I need some time. Also, the closer I am to the net, the greater the chance I will knock it long.

If I dropped back to the baseline to receive serve because I was planning to lob, would you notice that I was no longer crowding the net and anticipate the lob?

If you back up near the baseline, it won't matter whether you lob or not. If you're not able to execute a powerful passing shot, I will generally have enough time to reach anything you can put up. That extra 0.2 seconds makes all the difference. If I'm a threat to poach your return, you're better off stepping in and using a flat lob that's easier to disguise and gets past me faster.

[Angle Queen]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Tell your guys that there is never any excuse to miss a service return off of the opposing female. Similarly, they should never DF to her.

I think the biggest adjustment for guys who don't play much mixed is that you cannot stand there just waiting for your partner to set you up at net. Not gonna happen. You have to be active and a men*ace (how come this board considers "men*ace" to be an obscenity) up there. No matter how weak the female's serve seems to be, your guy should be faking and poaching and being as unpredictable as possible.

This. For advice to the guys.

On the non-skill side, I'd advise: don't be jerk, show up on time, with a fresh can of balls (if you're not in a league that provides them), compliment your female partner when it's warranted...and even when not, say something encouraging like "good thought" or "you'll get it next time." I hate being the liability or mere window-dressing but it doesn't have to be a totally miserable experience for either partner. I am always worried that I've let my male-partner down. I will play better if you say/express positive things.

Guess many of those things apply to any form of doubles but I find it even more important in mixed.

Originally Posted by travlerajm

Cyndy,
As someone who enjoys making life difficult for gals trying to hit returns past me, I'll let you in on a little secret: Guys like me like take away the easy shot and give you the hard shots. Your advice to crowd the service line was the right advice - if she doesn't do that she has no prayer to get it past me. But if she crowds the line, she has options.

To get it past me, she doesn't have to hit it super hard, but it has to be accurate.

Option 1. If you're going to get it past me cross-court, it's got to be a really sharp angle cross court (one that lands in the doubles alley inside the service line). ...

Option 2. Keep me honest. You've got to make me think about staying. Use the down the line alley at least once per game against an active netman. ...

Option 3. Keep me honest with the lob. Active poachers like to cheat close to the net if you let us. Lob once a game to keep me honest. Even you miss your lob target and get it pounded, it will make me think about it and reduce my range a little. Don't be afraid to try it again.

Bingo. Like Cindy's friend, I'm a bit of old-school grip-wise (not even sure exactly what I use ) but these are three of my main tenants in doubles (mixed or ladies!). I've worked really hard to develop that short-angle, heavy cc shot. In fact, it is my fav and I love it in doubles because I have the extra 4' of the alley to work with.

And she's gotta go DTL every so often. In fact, I often try it on the very first point of the match just to show that I can and will attempt it regardless of the serve's location or end result. Took awhile to find the BH up the alley from a serve up the T (on the deuce side) but it's been a god-send as I've moved up.

As for the lob attempt, try to put it where the opponents might have some confusion on who's gonna take it. Not quite as effective placement in mixed since the guy usually does, but the 'mine/yours' debate is often enough to get you back in the point.

[burosky]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

By her account (after eating a bagel), she simply could not get the ball past the guy when returning the woman's serve. The only service return that worked was if she hit a slice that tagged the doubles alley and stayed low. Everything else (crosscourt, DTL, lob) he crushed.

So this is a 4.0 guy who crushed every crosscourt, DTL or lob that he got? Must be some 4.0. It seems like the guy has exceptional speed, reaction and the proper mechanics to execute those crushing shots. I'm scared of the guy now. I hope I don't see him on the other side of the net any time soon.

[burosky]

As for the original post, I would suggest learning the "L" formation specially if the woman is not a strong player or clueless about playing doubles.

[NLBwell]

For the guys: Work on kick serves and actually practice returning slow short serves.
The most effective guy is the quickest at the net who can cover the most court. In mixed, I'm not that great a partner since my movement at the net is relatively poor and the match can be dominated by the opposing net guy if he is exceptionally quick.

When I played 8.0 mixed with my first ex-wife who was an excellent volleyer - she learned to volley first when learning tennis - she played the center of possible returns at the net and I played back and covered both alleys. I was very fast back then and we played to our individual strengths.
We only ever lost one match - to the national championship team - and I had an easy volley on a match point for the win I dumped into the net.

[max]

Originally Posted by goober

Women like men in shorts with 5 inch inseems or shorter. Also nothing says bad boy like a mullet and a tattoo. Try it out!

This is hilarious! But it's true about the shorts. Especially white ones.

[TennisCJC]

I am a guy and play mixed in winter and summer leagues. About 4.0-4.5 level (A-3 in ALTA).

I attack every 2nd serve from the woman unless she has a very good 2nd serve. Either hit it firm and deep and come in or slice it short and wide with some bite and come in.

Play the woman, play the woman, and play the woman. Opponents hit good ball while you are back - lob over the woman. Opponents both come in but you have shot at the pass, hit a dipping topspin pass to the woman. Both opponents back, hit aggressive shot to woman. I only hit to the man, if I am in a defensive position and he is back - say he hits a good serve or ground stroke and his female partner is at net, then I go back to the man.

Women don't like slice or kick serves. They don't see them very often and frequently will block harder serves back but really struggle with spinners.

[samarai]

I once played a match with a new partner and she wanted me to hit exclusively towards the woman. She got upset at times when I would hit towards the man just to get some rallies going. This was 7.0 league and it was clear the women was a very low 3.0. We easily won the match at 6-0,6-0 but that was an experience I never wanted to repeat.

[bethany2]

I've been reading this thread and others about mixed doubles and keep reading that a 4.5M and 3.5W combination works really well.

As a strong 3.5 female, would you all suggest that I play 7.0 or 8.0? I honestly thought that 7.0 would be my only option, but am now wondering if 8.0 might be better as I'm not sure I like being the stronger partner. Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm new here (and somewhat to USTA)!

[t135]

? It's all about the woman in mixed doubles. Unless the guy stinks, the other team is gonna hit everything to the woman. And either she can come up with the shots or you lose. Unless the other team is just weaker all around, of course.

Playing with a woman who can't put the ball away is almost always a hopeless situation.