How about a more extreme grip for one handed backhands?

[boramiNYC]

thanks cheetah for illustrating my point perfectly.

[BevelDevil]

The partly agree with Cheetah in that it is about "lift" with the arm, at least for most players.

BUT, in order to achieve that "lift" you need to hit further out front so that your arm is in the upward arc of of the swing. If you hit close to your body, at the bottom of the arc, the racket has no lift.

Therefore, you need a grip that allows you to hit sufficiently out in front. Rolling back your heel pad is the easiest way to achieve this.

As I've said before, it makes no sense to only use the index knuckle as a measure of grip. There's a huge difference between an Eastern with the heelpad on top vs. heel pad on the back bevel. Anyone who tries this can feel it.

Since I've stated all this recently, here's a link

http://beveldevil.blogspot.com/2013/...bout-heel.html

[Cheetah]

true. good point. i was mainly concerned with the knuckle explanation in my post.

[boramiNYC]

Bevildevil, I agree the index knuckle on bevil 1 and heelpad on bevil 8. That's exactly how I do it too. And on your article about Wawrinka, I don't see his heelpad near bevil 7. It seems on your photo it's on bevil 8, just like a normal E bh grip.

But I think it's somewhat important to note the index finger is not touching the middle finger for most pros. your 'mountain bike' phrase sounds like the index is touching the middle finger, which I wouldn't recommend.

[FrisbeeFool]

I've been playing tennis for a long time, and I've never heard of the steak knife grip. I'm not aware of any coaches that are teaching the "steak knife grip." Is the steak knife grip a continental? An eastern? Or somewhere in between?

If you want to learn the grip that most of the pros use, put your index knuckle on the top bevel. If you start with a continental grip and shift one bevel over you'll be in an eastern grip.

Let me reiterate what Cheetah and Borami have already said, most pros use an eastern grip. If you look at Wawrinka and Federer's topspin backhand grips, they're not extreme at all. Federer is closer to continental than some of his contemporaries.

If you're learning the one-handed backhand, using an extreme grip will not magically help you tap into the modern game and give you a Wawrinka-like backhand.

Henin probably uses a slightly more extreme grip because she is shorter, and probably grew up having to hit a lot of shoulder level balls. Everyone should use whatever grip is comfortable for them. Everybody's grip is slightly different.

If you were never taught the basics of a one-handed backhand, gravitating towards a more extreme grip is not a magical passport into the modern game. It would be a better use of your time learning the basic mechanics of the stroke.

The trend I've noticed is a lot of players of average size or bigger, are using smaller sized grips. I'm not sure if that's the ticket to the modern game, for someone who doesn't understand the basics of the backhand. But if you're looking for trends to follow in search of the modern game, that might be an actual one.

As far as the grips, most guys use eastern. Even look at the clay court guys. Some examples I can think of are Gaudio, Robredo, Almagro, Costa, and Corretja. All those five use the eastern backhand grip. If you're just learning the stroke, the eastern backhand grip is the most common in today's game, and it's a good place to start.

You can experiment and toy with your grip and find the exact position that works for you. It will vary based upon your height, playing style, and preference. Some people even shift their grip a little depending on the conditions.

[BevelDevil]

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

And on your article about Wawrinka, I don't see his heelpad near bevil 7. It seems on your photo it's on bevil 8, just like a normal E bh grip.

Oops. Thanks for the catch. I revised the article to say "bevel 8".

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

But I think it's somewhat important to note the index finger is not touching the middle finger for most pros. your 'mountain bike' phrase sounds like the index is touching the middle finger, which I wouldn't recommend.

I partly agree, partly disagree.

From what I've seen, most pros have their index finger tip touching the middle finger, but with a slight gap forming between the two with the index either bowing upward or outward. Typically, this is combined with the index tip pressing up against the thumb.

I think the extent of this finger separation depends on:

1. How far down the heel pad is from the index knuckle
2. whether they are forming a loop with their index and thumb, or if they keep their thumbs outside,
3. how they "feel" the handle to make sure they have the right grip.

Anyway, I think pretty much every pro avoid significant lateral separation between the fingers. A big gap between the fingers is a sign the heel pad isn't far down enough.


^^^ I would argue that this slight gap by Almagro happens mainly because his finger is pressed up against his thumb (forming a loop), which prevents the index finger from fully closing on the handle. He may also be doing this so he can feel bevel 4 with his finger tip.


^^^ same with Stan.

Whatever the cause, these gaps are tiny compared to what I see some coaches promote.


What happens when we move the thumb out of the way?


^^^ once the thumb is out of the way, the index finger can close down fully. Note how Kuerten's thumb is to the side of his fingers, not underneath.


^^^ same with Pete.

Overall, I think the absence of a gap isn't an immediate warning sign. However, a big gap between the fingers is likely a big problem.

[BevelDevil]

Originally Posted by FrisbeeFool

I've been playing tennis for a long time, and I've never heard of the steak knife grip. I'm not aware of any coaches that are teaching the "steak knife grip." Is the steak knife grip a continental? An eastern? Or somewhere in between?

If you want to learn the grip that most of the pros use, put your index knuckle on the top bevel. If you start with a continental grip and shift one bevel over you'll be in an eastern grip.

As I've said very often, an "Eastern" grip actually encompasses many grips because the palm positioning can vary.

If you do a Google image search under "eastern backhand grip", most of the instructional photos on the top few rows show someone holding the racket like a steak knife (hence, my made-up terminology). This has been more commonly referred to as a "pistol grip" because the finger looks like it's on a trigger. But I figure more people have used a steak knife than a pistol...

Most of these instructional photos are terrible. The worst is the one with a quarter on the back of the hand, but most are some variation of that.

These are not the grip the pros use. Compare these top search results with that the pros actually do. Hint: Look at the pictures from my last post.


If you still don't know what I'm talking about, see my own article that I've been referring to to avoid saying the same thing repeatedly.

http://beveldevil.blogspot.com/2013/...bout-heel.html


By the way, here's a pic that should show up on the top row of a Google search (but sadly is in the 11th row on my screen):


(Fabian Seixa)

If grabbing your racket this way results in a significantly different grip from what you currently use, you might benefit from a grip change.

Originally Posted by FrisbeeFool

Let me reiterate what Cheetah and Borami have already said, most pros use an eastern grip. If you look at Wawrinka and Federer's topspin backhand grips, they're not extreme at all. Federer is closer to continental than some of his contemporaries.

If you're learning the one-handed backhand, using an extreme grip will not magically help you tap into the modern game and give you a Wawrinka-like backhand.

The problem is that many rec players, including those who have studied the game, are using a weak grip to begin with. They do this for several reasons:

1. The aforementioned Google search (as well as Youtube videos that implicitly advocate a weak grip)
2. Their instructors are bad regarding the 1hbh (common).
3. They naturally picked up the racket with the weak grip. After all, what sane person would naturally pick up their racket like in the picture above?

Therefore many players do need a more extreme grip, though not necessarily a grip that is actually "extreme."

[10isfreak]

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

a lot of times rec players using 1hbh extend their wrist on contact as the result of locking the wrist from the prep. This opens up the racquet face at the contact. If you hold your racquet in normal E bh grip and address the contact point and make sure your wrist is not extended but either neutral or slightly flexed, then the racquet face will be closed. Once you put this angle in your muscle memory and practice you'll be able to hit as hard as you want and balls won't fly. And you'll find the neutral wrist can be much more firmer than the extended wrist.

Intuitively, the grip defines the forearm-racket head relation and should directly affect the outcome. A more extreme grip makes, ceteris paribus, for more angle at contact (for a less vertical face) as well as a more vertical swing path... And extreme grip should result, given our knowledge to a higher spin/pace ratio (closed face) and a higher ball trajectory (more vertical swing path prior contact).

The problem is that it forces us to face incoherent facts. Federer and Berdych are great example.

For the sake of your knowledge, they both pronate during their forehand transition (the forearm pronation occurs in between the take back and the the beginning of the forward acceleration of the racket) which has been identified as the optimal transition move. Being both part of this limited club, their forehands are very comparable, mechanically speaking, at least.

Federer generates a greater spin/pace ratio than Berdych, yet it's Berdych who has the most extreme grip of the two. So, a third factor OUGHT to account for the variations... the relationship between grips and strokes is indirect and I suggest that what bonds the two is the player's identity.

The player's identity would be, under this framework, a context within which the grip influences the stroke. Bearing objective biological and anatomical limitations, some grips might be better for player A and, others, for player B.

[10isfreak]

Originally Posted by BevelDevil

As I've said before, it makes no sense to only use the index knuckle as a measure of grip. There's a huge difference between an Eastern with the heelpad on top vs. heel pad on the back bevel. Anyone who tries this can feel it.

Since I've stated all this recently, here's a link

http://beveldevil.blogspot.com/2013/...bout-heel.html

When I explain grips, I used both the index knuckle and the heel pad... always. An eastern grip, in the sense that I intended to use the word and did use the word, fits very few hands positions only. Starting with bevel one on top, rotation toward your racket hand from 1 to 8, the eastern forehand is both of these references on the third bevel, period.

That's what I call a standard grip and that's how I have learnt them as well. When I talk about the eastern back, again, both references on the top of the racket (that's bevel number one).

Of course, there are huge problems with these names... as you lessen the grip size relative to the hand, it becomes nearly impossible to hold a standard grip at all. Federer and Nadal play with grips something like 2 grip size less than the conventional measure would advocate. Even by trying, they can't get their heel pad on the same bevel as their index finger.

I personally use one grip size less and replaced the grip with two very thing overgrips... I have long fingers and that's small for me: unless the racket is at a ridiculous angle in my hand, I can't get to fit the standard I have wrote down myself.

[10isfreak]

Originally Posted by BevelDevil

If grabbing your racket this way results in a significantly different grip from what you currently use, you might benefit from a grip change.

Federer


Gasquet and Henin

It seems to me that their hands are quite a bit more angled with the handle than the suggested grip form you uploaded...

[boramiNYC]

hey freak, I'd just wait until you try all these stuff in real hitting. and btw I believe berdych fh is eastern just like Fed.

[BevelDevil]

Originally Posted by 10isfreak

When I explain grips, I used both the index knuckle and the heel pad... always. An eastern grip, in the sense that I intended to use the word and did use the word, fits very few hands positions only. Starting with bevel one on top, rotation toward your racket hand from 1 to 8, the eastern forehand is both of these references on the third bevel, period.

That's what I call a standard grip and that's how I have learnt them as well. When I talk about the eastern back, again, both references on the top of the racket (that's bevel number one).

Of course, there are huge problems with these names... as you lessen the grip size relative to the hand, it becomes nearly impossible to hold a standard grip at all. Federer and Nadal play with grips something like 2 grip size less than the conventional measure would advocate. Even by trying, they can't get their heel pad on the same bevel as their index finger.

I think what you're saying is that your index knuckle and heelpad are both on bevel 1.

If that works for you, then that's great.

But that's not what the pros do, and I think it's a bad grip for most players. 1-8 is probably the least mildest that should be used, and 1-7.5 or 1-7 is probably most useful.

Also, using an undersized handle isn't enough to account for a 2-bevel change in heel pad position (especially since most these guys use oversized buttcaps.

Originally Posted by 10isfreak

It seems to me that their hands are quite a bit more angled with the handle than the suggested grip form you uploaded...

Probably two reasons:

1. Federer does not use the grip illustrated by Fabian Seixa above. Seixa's grip is pretty strong, with his heelpad probably squarely on bevel 7. Federer's grip is more mild, with his heel pad around the lower 8, or maybe 7/8 edge. So the greater angle shouldn't be surprising.

2. They are all swinging, and their wrists have probably bent outwards slightly (ulnar deviation).

Here Gasquet has a pretty sharp angle.



Just to be clear, the grip illustrated by Seixa is a pretty strong one and isn't right for everyone. But I think it's a much better defaul grip than what Google search returns.

[watungga]

1HBH needs a strong, abrupt, short or quick brush up impact on the ball. Its a must as the saying goes "all shots are not created equal". If you cannot do this action on afrementioned impact, you may have the wrong grip and wrong timing sense of stepping onto incoming ball.

Kuerten, Gasquet, Henin are way too advance to exercise consistency in their expertise. They all have a very advanced sense to the incoming ball. Ball is hit very far out in front. If you're not following the ball where it would go in advance, stay away from their grips.

The later your instinctive reponse is, moving grip to continental is discreetly advised.

[10isfreak]

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

hey freak, I'd just wait until you try all these stuff in real hitting. and btw I believe berdych fh is eastern just like Fed.

Take Soderling, if you prefer. Same case...

As for real hitting, it doesn‘t matter. We‘re covering what happens regardless of the person.

[kaiser]

Great thread, very informative, I'll try out some of your suggestions next time I'm on court! How about transitioning between a one handed topspin and slice backhand, would you guys advocate a grip change? In the past, several coaches have taught me to hit my slice backhand with a continental grip (initially when I was mostly a s&v player on grass). However, I have found that I naturally tend to over-extend my wrist when I hit a slice, creating a 'V' between my hand an my wrist. If I do that using a continental grip I tend to cut under the ball with a very open face instead of driving through it, resulting in a very spinny shot with very little pace, almost a drop shot.

Recently, I've been experimenting with using my normal eastern backhand grip (still need to figure out exactly where my heel pad is on it...), and when I then extend my wrist, I open the racket face just enough to get a nice deep, biting slice (ideally, of course). It also makes transitioning between an intended topspin backhand to a last ditch slice a little bit easier. What would you guys recommend, keep going with the eastern backheand grip on my slice backhand, or stay with the continental and learn not to extend my wrist (easier said than done...)?

[greystar403]

Originally Posted by kaiser

Great thread, very informative, I'll try out some of your suggestions next time I'm on court! How about transitioning between a one handed topspin and slice backhand, would you guys advocate a grip change? In the past, several coaches have taught me to hit my slice backhand with a continental grip (initially when I was mostly a s&v player on grass). However, I have found that I naturally tend to over-extend my wrist when I hit a slice, creating a 'V' between my hand an my wrist. If I do that using a continental grip I tend to cut under the ball with a very open face instead of driving through it, resulting in a very spinny shot with very little pace, almost a drop shot.

Recently, I've been experimenting with using my normal eastern backhand grip (still need to figure out exactly where my heel pad is on it...), and when I then extend my wrist, I open the racket face just enough to get a nice deep, biting slice (ideally, of course). It also makes transitioning between an intended topspin backhand to a last ditch slice a little bit easier. What would you guys recommend, keep going with the eastern backheand grip on my slice backhand, or stay with the continental and learn not to extend my wrist (easier said than done...)?

I keep a continental grip on the topspin and slice more because I'm too lazy to change.

I'm 5'11" and my brother is 6'3" and always hits high to my back hand. He occasionally throws a fast one in there so it's easier for me to keep a continental grip.

By the way, I'm only 18 years old and LOVE to serve/volley and chip/charge. I find that the modern game and anything referring to it (grips, rackets, string, etc.) requires a bit of work.

The modern game requires a decent amount of athleticism when setting up for shots and hitting out in front. A conservative grip requires less of the two, but if you have it anyways WO HO HO. Magic.

I've tried the extreme grip only once. I had to bend my knees a lot to hit a decent ball. I actually slammed my left knee on the ground and decided never to do it again. Whatever net clearance you get out of it isn't worth it.

[BevelDevil]

Originally Posted by kaiser

Great thread, very informative, I'll try out some of your suggestions next time I'm on court! How about transitioning between a one handed topspin and slice backhand, would you guys advocate a grip change? In the past, several coaches have taught me to hit my slice backhand with a continental grip (initially when I was mostly a s&v player on grass). However, I have found that I naturally tend to over-extend my wrist when I hit a slice, creating a 'V' between my hand an my wrist. If I do that using a continental grip I tend to cut under the ball with a very open face instead of driving through it, resulting in a very spinny shot with very little pace, almost a drop shot.

Recently, I've been experimenting with using my normal eastern backhand grip (still need to figure out exactly where my heel pad is on it...), and when I then extend my wrist, I open the racket face just enough to get a nice deep, biting slice (ideally, of course). It also makes transitioning between an intended topspin backhand to a last ditch slice a little bit easier. What would you guys recommend, keep going with the eastern backheand grip on my slice backhand, or stay with the continental and learn not to extend my wrist (easier said than done...)?

You should keep your wrist stable on the slice. Your arm should be straight at contact and sweep across your body on the follow through. Look at Federer and Steffi Graf, GOAT level slices there.

You should slice with continental so that you won't need to do something awkward with your wrist. It should be close the the same grip as your bh volley.

As for changing your mind at the last second, that's just a matter of learning to read the ball better, move better, and/or increasing your "strike zone" on your 1hbh drive.

[BevelDevil]

Originally Posted by greystar403

I keep a continental grip on the topspin and slice more because I'm too lazy to change.

I'm 5'11" and my brother is 6'3" and always hits high to my back hand. He occasionally throws a fast one in there so it's easier for me to keep a continental grip.

By the way, I'm only 18 years old and LOVE to serve/volley and chip/charge. I find that the modern game and anything referring to it (grips, rackets, string, etc.) requires a bit of work.

The modern game requires a decent amount of athleticism when setting up for shots and hitting out in front. A conservative grip requires less of the two, but if you have it anyways WO HO HO. Magic.

I've tried the extreme grip only once. I had to bend my knees a lot to hit a decent ball. I actually slammed my left knee on the ground and decided never to do it again. Whatever net clearance you get out of it isn't worth it.

Keep in mind that Dimitrov uses a continental on both his slice and topspin, BUT on the topspin shot he moves the heelpad of his palm further behind the handle. Both are still considered "Continental", but one is for slice/volleys, the other is for drives/topspin.

[LeeD]

A big grip change between forehand topspin, to backhand slice, to backhand topspin is a formula waiting for an error to happen.

[Relinquis]

I'm not sure i agree with you LeeD. i think as long as your backhand topspin and slice grips are not too different than you should be ok in my opinion. So eastern backhand (1st bevel index knuckle-8th bevel healpad) and continental aren't that far away. Only 1 bevel or so.

Changing grips is easy as I always hold the throat of my racquet with my non-dominant hand during my shoulder turn.