Video at tournaments

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by lala28m

I admit, I do not remember the street walker part. If my memory is lacking in that respect, my apologies, clearly an inappropriate comment, no matter who the parent(s). Not appropriate. Nothing in that thread was appropriate. It was a kid bashing catastrophe.

I, respectfully, maintain that the 2 posters were both throwing digs at each other, both kept bringing each others kids up within the argument. Obviously, this will NEVER lead to anywhere good. Maybe a lesson to be learned??

At least these parents were there to defend their own kids...what grabbed my attention from the get-go were the comments about the (not sufficiently good enough) looks of an 11yo CHILD... A GIRL. What can you be thinking when you write that?? This was obviously a gloves-off fighting kind of guy. I didn't engage, but am I surprised that someone did? No, I'm not.

So if you want to ask me about what I find creepy from that thread, I can make you long a list. But neither guy will come out looking very good. Point is, you can't cry foul if you started (the dirty) fighting. Hard to feel bad for either guy. At the same time, I have only been following for a few months, so I can't speak for what has happened in the apparent years of this back and forth.

I thought this was a forum was about tennis and how to take notes from each other about how to better our kids. Not bash each others kids. Of course, all of them need improvement, they are children.

Lastly, not to get personal, but let's say for the sake of argument, that myself or someone close to me, was a victim of child predation. It is an actual tragedy that too many children endure. Let's not involve real victims, real crimes and compare them to this silly back and forth argument.

A lot of the comments were beyond stupid, but there is little evidence that anyone had motives to abuse children. And like I pointed out, the forum administrators, who are in some way responsible for fairness and legality here, did come to the same conclusion. It's a silly Internet argument, that's it. Let's get over it and try to be more respectful of each other and our children going forward. Lesson learned, for some...

We will have to agree to disagree, I guess.

After all, the moderators did delete the posts. I am glad they apparently came to the conclusion that more than just a "silly internet argument" as you put it, was involved.

(If all posts connected to silly internet arguments were deleted, there'd be practically nothing left here.......including this little repartee!!)

[TCF]

================

[gplracer]

___________________________________________

[gplracer]

I still do not know where the USTA stands on this issue. It appears to be up to the tournament director.

[Woolybugger]

If you go against the wishes of the TD, what's to stop him from defaulting your kid from the tourney? You can protest all you want, and write a letter to the section chief, but the fact is you have to go home.

I agree that USTA or each section needs to codify the rules regarding videotaping. These days anyone can just pull out a phone and record an hour of video. Most of them are just taping their own kid for improvement purposes, which I see nothing wrong with.

[woodrow1029]

There is nothing in writing or in the Friend at Court that specifically allows or disallows someone setting up a camcorder to record their kids match at a juniors tournament.

As an official, I do not know what specific laws apply to specific states, counties, or the nation regarding privacy and minors, etc.

What we have basically been told is that if someone requests that their child's match NOT be recorded, they should make the request to the Tournament Director, and the TD should probably respect that request.

But, there is nothing official.

[gplracer]

Thanks Woodrow that is more information than I had before.

[ga tennis]

In Knoxville at the Bullfrog a couple weeks ago you could video if both parents said it was o.k. Only saw one time that a parent said no to video.

[anhuynh16]

As I player, there are some parents who do this. Personally I HATE it, and I'm not sure what to say to them.

[Chemist]

Originally Posted by anhuynh16

As I player, there are some parents who do this. Personally I HATE it, and I'm not sure what to say to them.

I asked both TD and ref if I could tape a few of my son's matches at 18s sectional championship a couple of weeks ago. The ref was laughing at me for asking him this. No need to ask for permission from other parent either. Video taping seems to be an issue for girls only.

[Soianka]

Originally Posted by lala28m

Umm. Yes, it was taken down. I think it was the same thread in which the said parent offered to set up a fight with third poster (who claimed to be female) to settle whatever issues (there were many) were flying back and forth in that particular thread. All of it was childish and out of hand, honestly... The whole thread was craziness. None of the featured parents exhibited model behavior, but I strongly disagree with what you are insinuating.

Child predation is a real and serious societal and personal tragedy. Bringing it up just to throw fighting words or digs at someone does a disgrace to actual victims. Not cool.

From what I can remember, the only obsessions any posters had in that thread were with each other. Poster#1 bragged about his (not tournament tested) tennis prodigy, (while several others kept explaining the benefits of tournaments, rankings etc), and poster#2, a (recognized) parent of a ranked junior, took to heart the slamming of his own kid's life work (tournaments, points, rankings, wins etc) basically said "put your money where your mouth is". At face value, the gist was disproving the first posters repeated claims of a secret child tennis prodigy, and not much else.

No, the 2nd poster should not have said he was tracking anyone down, to prove or disprove secret talent, magical powers,...any reason. Obviously, over the line. But the two guys were in, what equates to, a fist fight or a you-know-what measuring contest...of each other. I'm sure the thread was taken down for numerous good reasons. But "over-the-line" does not automatically mean "child creeper". Both posters made many over-the-line comments. (Personally, when poster#1, the allegedly grievenced here, made comments about a different little girl's looks, it made me very, very uncomfortable. Pointing out why she can't possibly have a sponsorship, based on this and that in her looks. He admitted having zero information, his remarks were "educated observances". Tops it off with how his own kid does have the look. Horrible. The only thing that stopped me from defending an obviously super cute kid, is my mantra "Can't argue with stupid"). But neither of these 2 were banned, so your insinuation about the motives of one of them cannot be true or are not as obvious as you suggest. At least, not to me nor to the administrators of this forum.

It is one thing to disagree with other posters, and obviously poster#1 +poster#2 have had an axe to grind with each other for probably longer than grown adults should, but lets be honest, that's a tough accusation you are slinging. There are real victims of abuse out there whose plight and cause is being watered down by such frivolous use of this serious accusation.

Nice post.

[Soianka]

Originally Posted by TCF

=================

Oh no, not again.

[sureshs]

I think allowing unrestricted taping of minors is a bad idea. How do you make sure it is the kid's parents? Is it the job of the other kid's parents to verify this? I don't think so. Is it the TD's responsibility to patrol this? What if one parent is biological but has a "boyfriend" who is doing the taping? And that guy is a creep whom she has known for a week?

The onus should be on those who want to shoot the video. They should present their credentials to the TD, the TD should ask the other kid's parents, and only then allow the request.

As a good example of what might happen, there is the recent case of the high school pole vault girl. Her pictures led to several obscene comments leading to huge distress to the parents.

Even journalists have limited First Amendment rights, and their own code of ethics. For example, they can film a general scene but cannot keep focusing on particular people. Has nobody noticed how faces are blurred in such situations? What makes anyone think that they can focus on a minor female kid for 2 hours and claim it is their "right" and then out it up on the Internet for anyone to mock and creeps to pursue? Totally irresponsible attitude of entitlement and a contempt for others' feelings.

[Trippisthebest]

Honestly I think the USTA needs to favor every way to make a player better as United States tennis is dying. USTA Officials need to look at this. THERE ARE ONLY LIKE 6 or 7 PRO AMERICAN TENNIS PLAYERS IN THE TOPP 100. WE NEED TO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO MAKE U.S. TENNIS BETTER.

[omega4]

Originally Posted by sureshs

I think allowing unrestricted taping of minors is a bad idea. How do you make sure it is the kid's parents? Is it the job of the other kid's parents to verify this? I don't think so. Is it the TD's responsibility to patrol this? What if one parent is biological but has a "boyfriend" who is doing the taping? And that guy is a creep whom she has known for a week?

The onus should be on those who want to shoot the video. They should present their credentials to the TD, the TD should ask the other kid's parents, and only then allow the request.

As a good example of what might happen, there is the recent case of the high school pole vault girl. Her pictures led to several obscene comments leading to huge distress to the parents.

Even journalists have limited First Amendment rights, and their own code of ethics. For example, they can film a general scene but cannot keep focusing on particular people. Has nobody noticed how faces are blurred in such situations? What makes anyone think that they can focus on a minor female kid for 2 hours and claim it is their "right" and then out it up on the Internet for anyone to mock and creeps to pursue? Totally irresponsible attitude of entitlement and a contempt for others' feelings.

How does this differ from parents videotaping little league baseball games or pee wee football games, where the filmed subjects are all minors?

As someone posted earlier, I think the issue boils down to the fact that some of the filmed subjects are girls.

Nothing more, nothing less.

[lendl1986]

There's usually a parent filming at basketball, baseball, and soccer tournaments. Never heard of an official asking them to stop.

I can't understand why some parents and tourney directors would be against it.

I have taped 10s of matches at the adult level, for what its worth. Never had a USTA official or an opponent decline.

[Rattler]

Originally Posted by Trippisthebest

Honestly I think the USTA needs to favor every way to make a player better as United States tennis is dying. USTA Officials need to look at this. THERE ARE ONLY LIKE 6 or 7 PRO AMERICAN TENNIS PLAYERS IN THE TOPP 100. WE NEED TO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO MAKE U.S. TENNIS BETTER.

What does that have to do with this thread?

[omega4]

Originally Posted by lendl1986

There's usually a parent filming at basketball, baseball, and soccer tournaments. Never heard of an official asking them to stop.

I can't understand why some parents and tourney directors would be against it.

I have taped 10s of matches at the adult level, for what its worth. Never had a USTA official or an opponent decline.

Well, I can see where some cautious, overprotective (?) parents of minors who are girls might assume the worst about people filming their daughters as they're competing.

But I don't see how that differs from fans filming minors who are girls competing in a juniors diving competition or girls high school volleyball or girls basketball.

I think it just comes down to these parents assuming the worst when it comes people filming their daughters playing tennis.

Personally, I think these parents are slightly neurotic and it might say something about the mentality of some "tennis parents" in general.

[North]

Originally Posted by Woolybugger

If you go against the wishes of the TD, what's to stop him from defaulting your kid from the tourney? You can protest all you want, and write a letter to the section chief, but the fact is you have to go home.

I agree that USTA or each section needs to codify the rules regarding videotaping. These days anyone can just pull out a phone and record an hour of video. Most of them are just taping their own kid for improvement purposes, which I see nothing wrong with.

It's amazing what you see when you quietly watch a lot of matches at these tournaments. I'd always seen coaches taping matches or parts of matches, often concentrating on some particular aspect(s) of play - footwork, BH, etc. But, over the past year or spo, I have started to notice people (usually parents) taping matches to document cheating or bad behavior.

In one case a kid went (on his own, without the parent's involvement) to get an official for problems with the opponent's line calls. The Dad was, however, filming and got on tape the other kid changing the score on the flip cards on the side of the net. That would have been very hard to prove if the cheater (and the cheater's parent) started self-righteously iinsisting he was being falsely accused. As it was, the kid who changed the score was DQ'd from the tournament and suspended for a few months because there was proof.

The TDs are spineless in capitulating to anyone who objects to people who simply want to film their own child or student for learning purposes. But I have occasionally seen them actually get proactive in overseeing a match when the parent comes right out and says he/she is filming because their childs opponent behaves so badly or cheats like mad as soon as the official leaves the area (which is what typically happens).

I totally understand the objection any parent might have to a potential stranger filming their child. That would freak me out, too, I think. But perhaps the default should be that if there is contention about a player's behavior or not following rules, that the other player has the option to film to support complaints.

[omega4]

Originally Posted by North

I totally understand the objection any parent might have to a potential stranger filming their child. That would freak me out, too, I think.

Just curious, but how would you feel if your child played pee wee football, little league baseball, or soccer and there were strangers filming your child while he/she was playing?

What are all these tennis parents worried about?