Trouble with Eastern Forehand

[AYone]

Right. Try a wrist support while playing with a semi-western grip. Also try to strengthen the muscles in your hand and forearm with regular exercise.

[Hi I'm Ray]

Originally Posted by johnchung907

Extremem eastern? You mean the one that fed uses? An in between semi western and eastern? No I have not tried it. Will it provide a somewhat semi-western spin and still allow me to hit through flat?

I think you got the quotes and responses mixed up.

But to answer your questions, I'd say yes. I say I play SW for the sake of simplicity but I start shifting towards extreme eastern for lower shots, so I actually play EE quite often.

[rkelley]

Wrist issues not withstanding, I agree with some of other posters that it will be easier to generate the spin with an extreme/strong/modified Eastern grip than with a pure E. grip. With a pure E. you really have to lay your wrist back a lot to be able to pronate your forearm and generate a good topspin swing path.

I suspect that this is why some players who use an E. grip also have a straight-ish arm at contact. The straight arm would tend to reduce the amount that you have to layback your wrist. But consistently hitting with a straight arm has its own set of difficulties. Something around SW is a really good compromise for wrist position, generating the swing path for topspin, but still being able to flatten out shots when desired.

When I started hitting a modern fh two years ago my fh grip was fairly centered between E and SW. It's migrated to be darn close to SW, although I don't think it's quite all the way there. That type of grip migration is pretty common from what I've heard. To a certain extent I've just let my body tell me what it wanted to do and went with it. I'm big on analytics, but you do need to feel it too. When your hitting feel is all you have, so it's gotta feel good. The results are working for me.

[Relinquis]

no need to change your grip. federer hits eastern and has, by some measurements, the 2nd highest topspin on tour.

just hit with a more closed racquet face at contact. think 10-15 degrees. you might find that you have to swing forward faster, or adjust your stroke otherwise, but it will come through feel. hitting with a closed racquet face at impact gives you more topspin than hitting flat.

much easier than messing around with overly wristy movements.

[rkelley]

Originally Posted by Relinquis

no need to change your grip. federer hits eastern and has, by some measurements, the 2nd highest topspin on tour.

just hit with a more closed racquet face at contact. think 10-15 degrees. you might find that you have to swing forward faster, or adjust your stroke otherwise, but it will come through feel. hitting with a closed racquet face at impact gives you more topspin than hitting flat.

much easier than messing around with overly wristy movements.

Respectfully, closing the racquet face at contact with no other changes means that you'll just hit the ball into the net. Closing the racquet face in and of itself does not produce topspin. The racquet has to have a component of its velocity going up to produce topspin. You can get some gentle topspin by swinging low to high ala the classic forehand, but if you want the ball spinning the way that is possible with a modern swing path (like Federer) you’re going to have to add a significant upward component to the swing and that upward component has to be present at the contact point. Flat contact with a WW follow through looks nice, but doesn’t actually create topspin. Generally to get the upward component in the swing path requires some combination of pronation of the forearm and upper arm rotation. With an Eastern-ish grip, at contact it’s going to be mostly forearm pronation, with upper arm rotation being used mostly to decelerate the WW motion.

[Relinquis]

Originally Posted by rkelley

Respectfully, closing the racquet face at contact with no other changes means that you'll just hit the ball into the net. Closing the racquet face in and of itself does not produce topspin. The racquet has to have a component of its velocity going up to produce topspin.[...]

if he dumps it into the net after tilting the racquet forward, as he mostly likely will do, then he will adjust his swing path accordingly to get it over the net next time by swinging low to high slightly. The key is to have an closed racquet face (i.e. tilted forward, not much, only about 10-15 degrees or so, maybe even a bit less). If the racquet face is not tiled forwards at contact, the spin won't be as intense not matter how steeply you hit upwards and will likely come by sacrificing depth.

That's why you hear coaches sometimes say to lead with the edge of teh racquet. It's a cue to ensure that it is tilted properly.

[rkelley]

Originally Posted by Relinquis

if he dumps it into the net after tilting the racquet forward, as he mostly likely will do, then he will adjust his swing path accordingly to get it over the net next time by swinging low to high slightly. The key is to have an closed racquet face (i.e. tilted forward, not much, only about 10-15 degrees or so, maybe even a bit less). If the racquet face is not tiled forwards at contact, the spin won't be as intense not matter how steeply you hit upwards and will likely come by sacrificing depth.

That's why you hear coaches sometimes say to lead with the edge of teh racquet. It's a cue to ensure that it is tilted properly.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think the key to generating topspin is to have a closed racquet face. It's never worked that way for me and I can't think of any reason why it would work that way. The angle of the racquet face determines the angle that the ball will leave the racquet. The swing path can have some effect on what racquet face angle you will want, but you're not going to get appreciably more topspin just by tilting the racquet face.

The key to generating topspin is swinging low to high as you said. However how do you swing low to high fast enough to generate large amounts of topspin without some combination of pronation and uppper arm rotation? A gently upward swing path, which about all you can get without pronation and upper arm rotation, will produce small to moderate (at best) amounts of topspin. You're not going to get the kind of spin that you see modern players getting without using modern techniques.

[2ManyAces]

I use extreme eastern. I like it because you get the ability to flatten out your shots easily, but I can also clock spin when I need to.

I hit western for awhile but then changed to normal eastern. I sucked for awhile but it helped my technique a lot.

I have recently switched to extreme eastern and I feel like it's easier to generate a low-high swing path.

[luvforty]

the launch angle is not perpendicular to the face

[TheCheese]

Originally Posted by johnchung907

Extremem eastern? You mean the one that fed uses? An in between semi western and eastern? No I have not tried it. Will it provide a somewhat semi-western spin and still allow me to hit through flat?

That's what I use. If you use the right technique you can generate a ton of spin. (Using pronation in the takeback) Otherwise, it's going to be less spin than SW but more than eastern. (obviously)

[gbgTennis]

You can hit every kind of shot with every kind of forehand grip (ok, fh slice is hard to do with western grip ). If you keep playing with an eastern grip for a couple of weeks, your wrist will automatically get stronger and you'll be able to hit more from low to high and you'll also be able to pronate with more power without hurting your arm. Pronation basically is the rotation of your right arm counter-clockwise. When your arm just hangs down lose, pronation is turning the palm of your hand from the front to the back of your body.

[mbm0912]

Originally Posted by aimr75

I get a good amount of spin with an eastern grip.. I think the WW motion certainly helps me achieve more spin..

just some drop balls, but its the racquet/hand/arm path i try for with an eastern grip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVcWXW4Lcis

Nice! I wish I was that confident to hit close to glass..

[rufus_smith]

Originally Posted by mbm0912

Nice! I wish I was that confident to hit close to glass..

That's his neighbor's house I bet.

[LeeD]

I switched away from Eastern forehand grip because it allows errors in both directions...too high and going long, and too low and dumping into the net.
It DOES allow for a nice sliced forehand, something seen more and more often.
I'm at strong SW right now, no slice forehand, but a rally ball forehand and a forcing shot forehand.

[rkelley]

Originally Posted by user92626

IMO, there's no need for any of that pronation, ww craps. Just hit the ball with a slightly closed racket face. The ball may go to the net, so you'll learn very quickly to swing up. None of this requires pronation, turning, ww whaterver!

Originally Posted by rkelley

You can do this, and you can hit a nice flattish stroke, but you can't get the big topspin without some combination of forearm pronation and upper arm rotation. The racquet has to go up, and given human physiology that's the best way to do that.

With the E. grip specifically, it's going to be mostly pronation at the contact point. Upper arm rotation mostly decelerates the racquet. With more W grips it's different.

Originally Posted by user92626

Flattish stroke?

Actually, what I described in my post above is exactly how the racket contacts the ball and produces topspin as far as it is concerned. To produce a topspin shot the racket face just needs to contact the ball unevenly, above its equator, and with an upward and forward path. IMO, for simplicity's sake that's all novice and overworried players need to focus on. (Of course, after contact, simply allow the racket, your arm flow their natural courses.)

For me that has been much easier to learn than to pay attention to "forearm pronation" or "upper arm rotation", etc.

What you said is quoted above.

Specifically I was responding to, " . . . there's no need for any of that pronation, ww craps. Just hit the ball with a slightly closed racket face." Respectfully a closed racquet face by itself won't do anything but direct the ball down. It's not going to add spin.

I also don't think that it's super productive to think about uneven contact hitting above the equator either. It's the upward path that you mention. The racquet has to have an upward component to produce topspin. Figure out the racquet angle you want to make the ball clear the net, and get that upward component.

The best way to get the upward component is the ww stuff, pronation, etc. You also just hit with a rising swing path like they used to teach and you'll get some topspin, but nothing like what you can get with modern technique.

[aimr75]

Originally Posted by mbm0912

Nice! I wish I was that confident to hit close to glass..

I wasnt trying to kill the ball..
Have since sold that house.. glass in tact

[user92626]

rkelley,

It sounds like you're trying to split a stroke into different, individual components, ie. " closed racquet face by itself" and pick parts to argue!!! Why? A stroke needs a right mix of stuffs to work, ie the power, the contact, the path, ... and you hone in by practicing and feels.


"The best way to get the upward component is the ww stuff, pronation, etc."

Well, for me the best way to get the upward component is to ...hit up What I observe is that human mind can only visualize and apply exerting force in a linear path. Yes, in reality the racket goes in an arc, but when you intend to hit or throw something with force it's a linear, "straight" line exertion that the mind perceives. So, when you think pronation, ww or anything that goes in a curve, especially after the initial swinging, it tends to screw up your stroke.

[rkelley]

Originally Posted by user92626

rkelley,

It sounds like you're trying to split a stroke into different, individual components, ie. " closed racquet face by itself" and pick parts to argue!!! Why? A stroke needs a right mix of stuffs to work, ie the power, the contact, the path, ... and you hone in by practicing and feels.


"The best way to get the upward component is the ww stuff, pronation, etc."

Well, for me the best way to get the upward component is to ...hit up What I observe is that human mind can only visualize and apply exerting force in a linear path. Yes, in reality the racket goes in an arc, but when you intend to hit or throw something with force it's a linear, "straight" line exertion that the mind perceives. So, when you think pronation, ww or anything that goes in a curve, especially after the initial swinging, it tends to screw up your stroke.

I'm not trying to pick parts to argue. I also agree that you can only focus on so many things at one time. To me, closing the racquet face is the last thing you think about. If the swing path is right and the form is good, but the ball is still long or into the net, change the racquet face angle. Estimating the best racquet face angle is something we do on every shot and had lots of different components that affect what the best angle should be.

But I did want to address the idea that closing the racquet face in and of itself produces topspin. To me this is the wrong place to focus if you're trying to generate more topspin. I'm just imagining folks going out, tilting their racquet face more toward the ground, and wondering why they're not getting anymore topspin and hitting the ball into the base of the net.

If you want the big topspin, the racquet has to have a large upward component to its velocity that is perpendicular to the ball. That's just physics - like you said swing up. Given human anatomy, the way that high level players are creating this huge upward velocity (i.e. swinging up), while maintaining good forward velocity through the ball, is via pronation of the forearm and upper arm rotation. You can say it's wristy, hard to learn, whatever, but I know of no other way to make this happen.

You can get smaller amounts of topspin by hitting with a rising swing path. Swing low to high and catch the racquet up by your head. It works for what it does, but again you're not going to get the huge topspin, ball goes 70 mph and kicks up to your opponents head, with that technique.

[10isfreak]

Originally Posted by rkelley

Respectfully, closing the racquet face at contact with no other changes means that you'll just hit the ball into the net. Closing the racquet face in and of itself does not produce topspin.

Facts:
Most pros hit the ball with a slightly closed racket;
Most pros swing on a nearly horizontal plane prior contact.

For Federer, hitting well above 2500 rpm of top spin, it takes a plane of roughly 15 degrees and a 11 degrees of racket face closure at contact. Of course, he does other things, but it illustrates how shallow a swing can be and yet generate tons of spin. If you swing more upward, you will get some more spin, but as you said it will indeed be only a bit more -- and you will also be sending the ball higher.

The face closure does generate more spin, ceteris paribus. The idea is that by angling your racket, you manage to make an off-center contact with the ball: you hit the upper edge of the ball, which increases the amount of energy you spend in creating spin versus accelerating the entire ball.

[10isfreak]

Originally Posted by rkelley

I'm just imagining folks going out, tilting their racquet face more toward the ground, and wondering why they're not getting anymore topspin and hitting the ball into the base of the net.

That is unfortunately wrong. Up to a point, closing the racket face does have an impact on spin. Formally speaking, it does not create spin. It actually increases the spin/pace ratio.

The idea is that you have a certain amount of energy that will effectively be transmitted to the ball. It can accelerate the ball or the edge of the ball (that is, making it spin) or both. It's the ball's roundness which is useful here because you can in fact make contact in different places on it. Like pool, hitting on the top does make the ball spin. Of course, the string bed and the ball are not solid like rock, but it gives you an idea of what happens.