serve - swing up with 'pre-supination' - Page 3

luvforty · 02-01-2013, 07:39 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NehyqjhDbsM

and now I realize for the (proper) pronation to happen, the grip pressure has to be 1 out of 10.

Power Player · 02-01-2013, 07:57 AM

Sweet..this guy delivers every time.

Yes you want to keep grip loose because the racquet will drop further just due to that hinging effect.

toly · 02-01-2013, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvforty

toly thanks for the pictures....

leaning with cheetah on this one

...... the ball direction is controlled by timing the pronation right? FYB has a clip about kick serve that mentioned this, which makes sense to me.

to me supination is really just a move to put some pressure on the forearm to make it snap over faster, if anything, i think supination helps hitting to the RIGHT...... seemingly to me i can pronate faster with the 'loaded arm'

You are mostly talking about maximization of power of the serve. Let’s assume you can hit 150 mph serve and you are very happy about that. Then I ask you, what is the best way to control azimuth direction of the ball?

I suggested we should use forearm pronation/supination for direction control and ISR for speed of the ball.

Cheetah · 02-01-2013, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toly

I suggested we should use forearm pronation/supination for direction control and ESR for speed of the ball.

no you said 'supination'. also in a previous thread you said "we should not use pronation in the serve. we should instead use supination'.

i'm still waiting for the scientific research that states supination is used to control the direction of the ball.

Power Player · 02-01-2013, 10:14 AM

I still want to know what defines a player as "delicate".

toly · 02-01-2013, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah

no you said 'supination'. also in a previous thread you said "we should not use pronation in the serve. we should instead use supination'.

i'm still waiting for the scientific research that states supination is used to control the direction of the ball.

Forearm pronation and supination have reflection symmetry. If forearm pronation can control racquet orientation then it is absolutely obvious that forearm supination can do the same.

About forearm pronation and ESR scientific articles see corresponding Chas Tennis posts.

toly · 02-01-2013, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Power Player

I still want to know what defines a player as "delicate".

I’m old russian man and English definitely doesn’t like me. So, you tell me please what is wrong with this word.

LeeD · 02-01-2013, 11:18 AM

DELICATE.
LeeD.
Play singles against a peer, 2 sets, can't play for another 3 days.
Get hit by a car, bone break.
Fall forwards off a motorcycle, collarbone break.
Delicate.

Cheetah · 02-01-2013, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toly

Forearm pronation and supination have reflection symmetry. If forearm pronation can control racquet orientation then it is absolutely obvious that forearm supination can do the same.

About forearm pronation and ESR scientific articles see corresponding Chas Tennis posts.

Nope. supination turns the face away from the ball and is finished before contact is made and by then the face is controlled by other actions. Not supination.

Chas tennis's posts? Is that your 'scientific research'? Once again.. we are talking about your supination claim, not pronation.
I've read all of Chas tennis' posts. Nowhere does he or any other coach or any other member here or article or video or magazine or tv show or book or commentator ever say that ball direction is controlled by supination.

Why don't you copy one of his posts here to illustrate your point?

Power Player · 02-01-2013, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toly

I’m old russian man and English definitely doesn’t like me. So, you tell me please what is wrong with this word.

It sounds like you are either fragile, feminine or you play a game built around drop shots and pushing. It's a curious adjective.

Anyway, the main question here to me is post #1. And the answer seems to be "don't do that".

Topspin Shot · 02-01-2013, 12:08 PM

Maybe Toly's thinking of the root deligo, which means he loves tennis more than anyone else does.

sureshs · 02-01-2013, 12:09 PM

toly is talking about the delicate sense of touch and feel in his volleys, as in "soft hands."

toly · 02-01-2013, 12:30 PM

In reality I’m very harsh. To restrict myself I decided to use this “crazy” signature.

toly · 02-01-2013, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Nope. supination turns the face away from the ball and is finished before contact is made and by then the face is controlled by other actions. Not supination.

We should apply forehand pronation/supination before active ISR, see pictures of Federer and Henin in post #26. There must be no forearm supination around impact.

toly · 02-01-2013, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs

toly is talking about the delicate sense of touch and feel in his volleys, as in "soft hands."

Can you explain please why nobody can understand my explanations about this so simple stuff, unbelievable???

toly · 02-01-2013, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Power Player

Anyway, the main question here to me is post #1. And the answer seems to be "don't do that".

I agree with you. If we apply extreme forearm supination and extreme ESR, these actions can probably stimulate SSC for forearm pronation and ISR. So, they could increase angular speed of the racquet, but also can destroy completely azimuth control. At least I’ve never seen that pros use extreme forehand supination at the start of forward swing, but all of them exploit excessive ESR.

Chas Tennis · 02-02-2013, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Where is all the scientific research?

"For instance, in the power serve, pronation is primarily responsible for racquet orientation,.............."

From Biomechanics and Tennis, B. Elliott, See also Table 2, quote above in paragraph below the table.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577481/

Cheetah · 02-02-2013, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

"For instance, in the power serve, pronation is primarily responsible for racquet orientation,.............."

From Biomechanics and Tennis, B. Elliott, See also Table 2, quote above in paragraph below the table.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577481/

I've already seen this and the reference you provided talks about velocity only.

There is no mention or implication in that paper supporting Toly's claim that 'all scientific research shows that ball direction is controlled by supination'.

Chas Tennis · 02-02-2013, 04:08 PM

Maybe these arguments on supination & pronation are made worse by the seriously different definitions of terms. I know I have had a very hard time....believing ISR was pronation for decades until 2011, etc.

1) Position. The anatomical definitions of pronation and supination are defined for position of the forearm and not movement of the forearm. They reference 0° as a defined position of the "anatomical position". It is very clearly defined. You can search and find these definitions on the internet. In this video the forearm pronation and supination are measured.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLE1uAWCrVU

2) Common Usage for Rotational Motion in a Direction. For motion, for a right handed person looking out along the axis of the forearm, pronation is elbow-to-wrist rotation in the counter-clockwise direction and supination is forearm elbow-to-wrist rotation in clockwise direction. That usage is very common, including in biomechanical references. The forearm rotation direction is toward the the same positions as shown in the video above so this usage is closely related to the anatomical definition of #1. You might search and find on the internet, maybe not. If you think this usage is defined please search and provide some links.

3) Tennis Usage of 'Pronation'. The term is broadly used for the considerable arm rotation that can be seen by eye at the wrist especially at the end of the follow through. This motion in the follow through is mostly pronation (the rotation usage of #2). Leading up to impact, however, there is very little forearm pronation but a lot of internal shoulder rotation (ISR) to provide the largest component of racket head speed. The tennis usage of the term 'pronation' can not be searched on the internet. A dinosaur from the 1970s when people looked at tennis strokes by eye .....I even head Elliott use 'pronation' after his research and publications explained ISR. Since pronation is not a good term for the ISR of the serve you can't search and find an internet definition to describe how it is being used - its only in the collective tennis wisdom of....

There is a conflict if you think about the definition of #1 and the common usage of #2. If the angle of the forearm as defined is, say, in a position of 40° of supination but the forearm is rotating in the direction of pronation- are we sure what everybody means by pronation or supination?

Note-

"The Anatomical Position" - in this position all joints of the body are in their reference positions including supination and pronation at 0°.
https://www.google.com/search?q=anat...w=1334&bih=722

luvforty · 02-02-2013, 04:16 PM

chas I am confused..... #1 and #2 are the same thing, no?

02-01-2013, 07:39 AM	#41
luvforty Banned Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 1,294	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NehyqjhDbsM and now I realize for the (proper) pronation to happen, the grip pressure has to be 1 out of 10. Last edited by luvforty : 02-01-2013 at 07:50 AM.

02-01-2013, 07:57 AM	#42
Power Player G.O.A.T. Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: On my iPhone Posts: 13,545	Sweet..this guy delivers every time. Yes you want to keep grip loose because the racquet will drop further just due to that hinging effect. __________________ 🐐ing

02-01-2013, 10:14 AM	#45
Power Player G.O.A.T. Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: On my iPhone Posts: 13,545	I still want to know what defines a player as "delicate". __________________ 🐐ing

02-01-2013, 12:30 PM	#53
toly Professional Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,199	In reality I’m very harsh. To restrict myself I decided to use this “crazy” signature. __________________ Anatoly Antipin - one of the most delicate tennis players in the world.

02-02-2013, 04:08 PM	#59
Chas Tennis Professional Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 1,312	Definitions & Usage of Pronation & Supination Maybe these arguments on supination & pronation are made worse by the seriously different definitions of terms. I know I have had a very hard time....believing ISR was pronation for decades until 2011, etc. 1) Position. The anatomical definitions of pronation and supination are defined for position of the forearm and not movement of the forearm. They reference 0° as a defined position of the "anatomical position". It is very clearly defined. You can search and find these definitions on the internet. In this video the forearm pronation and supination are measured. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLE1uAWCrVU 2) Common Usage for Rotational Motion in a Direction. For motion, for a right handed person looking out along the axis of the forearm, pronation is elbow-to-wrist rotation in the counter-clockwise direction and supination is forearm elbow-to-wrist rotation in clockwise direction. That usage is very common, including in biomechanical references. The forearm rotation direction is toward the the same positions as shown in the video above so this usage is closely related to the anatomical definition of #1. You might search and find on the internet, maybe not. If you think this usage is defined please search and provide some links. 3) Tennis Usage of 'Pronation'. The term is broadly used for the considerable arm rotation that can be seen by eye at the wrist especially at the end of the follow through. This motion in the follow through is mostly pronation (the rotation usage of #2). Leading up to impact, however, there is very little forearm pronation but a lot of internal shoulder rotation (ISR) to provide the largest component of racket head speed. The tennis usage of the term 'pronation' can not be searched on the internet. A dinosaur from the 1970s when people looked at tennis strokes by eye .....I even head Elliott use 'pronation' after his research and publications explained ISR. Since pronation is not a good term for the ISR of the serve you can't search and find an internet definition to describe how it is being used - its only in the collective tennis wisdom of.... There is a conflict if you think about the definition of #1 and the common usage of #2. If the angle of the forearm as defined is, say, in a position of 40° of supination but the forearm is rotating in the direction of pronation- are we sure what everybody means by pronation or supination? Note- *"The Anatomical Position"* - in this position all joints of the body are in their reference positions including supination and pronation at 0°. https://www.google.com/search?q=anat...w=1334&bih=722 Last edited by Chas Tennis : 02-04-2013 at 06:45 AM. Reason: link showing the anatomical position