topspin is over rated

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by WildVolley

Explain to me why a strong man should have the huge fh take back of Sharapova rather than Federer's shorter same side of body take back.

Why is there so much hostility to recreational players trying to use the best players in the world as form models?

No hostility, but it should be based on reality. There are many WTA and ATP players with different kinds of swings. Soderling and DP have big swings.

I have seen many club "Federers" over the years and none of them can hit like Federer. The ones who can are beyond the 4.5 level and have played as juniors. Most would be better off with a "push" forehand than any fancy pull and embedded inside-out action. You are underestimating the wrist strength needed to pull off the FHs of Nadal and Federer. It is fine to say that the wrist is not involved, but in reality it is.

[WildVolley]

Originally Posted by sureshs

No hostility, but it should be based on reality. There are many WTA and ATP players with different kinds of swings. Soderling and DP have big swings.

I have seen many club "Federers" over the years and none of them can hit like Federer. The ones who can are beyond the 4.5 level and have played as juniors. Most would be better off with a "push" forehand than any fancy pull and embedded inside-out action. You are underestimating the wrist strength needed to pull off the FHs of Nadal and Federer. It is fine to say that the wrist is not involved, but in reality it is.

There are definitely different swings, but there are also a lot of commonalities. Soderling has the biggest take back (or the most behind the back), while DelPotro lifts up high but doesn't take it back behind his back. In general most of the other men don't bring the racket back like most WTA players. There's a real difference.

I don't mind players copying pros, because in my experience, even if you copy them, your stroke will look distinct unless you are an unusually talented mimic. As I previously noted, I tried to hit a straight arm forehand but found my body just doesn't do it. However, I think the exercise was still useful, as it helped bring my elbow away from the body at contact (even though there are pros that hit this way - Nishikori).

[marosmith]

Pretty sure the OP is being sarcastic. Don't feed him.

[rkelley]

Originally Posted by sureshs

No hostility, but it should be based on reality. There are many WTA and ATP players with different kinds of swings. Soderling and DP have big swings.

I have seen many club "Federers" over the years and none of them can hit like Federer. The ones who can are beyond the 4.5 level and have played as juniors. Most would be better off with a "push" forehand than any fancy pull and embedded inside-out action. You are underestimating the wrist strength needed to pull off the FHs of Nadal and Federer. It is fine to say that the wrist is not involved, but in reality it is.

The wrist and forearm are involved - a lot - but it doesn't take a huge amount of wrist or forearm strength. It's mostly about set-up, timing, and form.

[Relinquis]

luvforty,

Do you play on red clay? unless I'm trying to hit like soderling/berdych and aiming for the lines and corners most of the fitter guys that I play can run down shots effectively.. You need topspin and slice to mix things up both in terms of timing as well as height of your ball.

It's not just about speed and flatness of your strokes that allows you to take time from your opponent, movement and placement matter a lot.

[mikeespinmusic]

Well technically Forehand or Backhand will have an element of topspin on it (unless hit incorrectly like an off forehand then it has sidespin). Even a good flat serve needs topspin...unless you're like 7' 9".

But in regards to a loopy topspin groundstroke rally, yes I agree it is overrated, but this is where the newest racquet technology has gone and will go further. They want to make racquets that give users the safest clearance over the net , giving them a bigger margin for error. They want them swinging out with confidence. If you want to hit flat bullets over the net like Andre Agassi or Mark Philippoussis with speed and penetration you can either buy an old school school racquet or read up on how to depolarize your current one. But remember good solid footwork and preparation is key because there is a much smaller margin for error.

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by Relinquis

luvforty,

Do you play on red clay? unless I'm trying to hit like soderling/berdych and aiming for the lines and corners most of the fitter guys that I play can run down shots effectively.. You need topspin and slice to mix things up both in terms of timing as well as height of your ball.

It's not just about speed and flatness of your strokes that allows you to take time from your opponent, movement and placement matter a lot.

yes, clay is a different story.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by rkelley

The wrist and forearm are involved - a lot - but it doesn't take a huge amount of wrist or forearm strength. It's mostly about set-up, timing, and form.

You are probably talking about 4.5+ which is your level. Below that, the simple arc swing is better, isn't it?

[10isfreak]

Originally Posted by sureshs

No hostility, but it should be based on reality. There are many WTA and ATP players with different kinds of swings. Soderling and DP have big swings.

I have seen many club "Federers" over the years and none of them can hit like Federer. The ones who can are beyond the 4.5 level and have played as juniors. Most would be better off with a "push" forehand than any fancy pull and embedded inside-out action. You are underestimating the wrist strength needed to pull off the FHs of Nadal and Federer. It is fine to say that the wrist is not involved, but in reality it is.

Actually, the researcher I often quote from this blog that I can‘t name, but which involves tennis and speed, showed Nadal and Federer as the example which best fits tennis in general - and he even says that it is even truer for amateurs.

As for your comment, you first use the wrong word: it‘s not strength, it‘s power which is involved... secondly, it‘s not so much about having super human qualities than exploiting a muscular reflex. For half a second following the eccentric contraction of a muscle that is caused by an opposite force (such as contracting the antagonist muscle), you can benefit of a stretch-shortning cycle which gives you, because of a reflex, super human abilities... you can contract your forearm pronators a lot quicker than usual.

All it takes is having the hand in the right position. Besides that, it also has the benefit of not requiring excessive practice to properly close the racket face at contact... basically, if you present the right set up as you begin to accelerate your racket, this movement is bound to happen and it fortunately is very easy to replicate.

It‘s easier, science says, to hit like Feder, Nadal, Djokovic or Murray than to hit like Gonzalez or most of the WTA tour. As for your visual cues (pulling and pushing) are so vague that they divide anatomically similar forehands (like Djoko and Federer).

The key difference, the only thing worth looking at to get the exact effect I refer to is what happens when the racket first moves forward. Essentially, you either supinate or pronate right as the racket starts moving... the best players pronate right from the start. The racket does open up and they do supinate while swinging forward before pronating, but from the start, good players pronate. All members of the top four do it properly... and many GS winners did not. Hewitt, for one, does not do that.

[10isfreak]

Originally Posted by sureshs

You are probably talking about 4.5+ which is your level. Below that, the simple arc swing is better, isn't it?

Oh boy... it‘s lot more specific than that.

It depends on how skillful you are: you simply need a “textbook“ swing with the simple stuff like a good stance, a stable and consistent swing path and relatively good footwork habits (including bending your knees when required). From there, you ADD new stuff like what I talked about.

But a guy could rip big forehands, yet have an horrible backhand or a poor serve. He can‘t play at a high level, but his forehand could still be massive. It doesn‘t need to be 4.5 to hit as 8 explained... just a very average level of skill and a rather consistent swing is enough.

Of course, if you want to crank up the pace or try to hit as I explained against an other big hitter, that‘s an other story altogether.

[tennis_balla]

Come on, not another one of these threads.

[luvforty]

come on balla, it's winter, what else are we gonna do, other than the 3 hours of polar bear tennis i already put in today!

20F out there, 12mph breeze, wind chill 4F

[rkelley]

Originally Posted by rkelley

The wrist and forearm are involved - a lot - but it doesn't take a huge amount of wrist or forearm strength. It's mostly about set-up, timing, and form.

Originally Posted by sureshs

You are probably talking about 4.5+ which is your level. Below that, the simple arc swing is better, isn't it?

It depends on what your goals are. A simple arc swing can certainly accomplish a lot. You have a nice, smooth motion and are very consistent. But the more modern technique allows you hit harder with consistency. If you want to improve you just have to commit to learning the new technique and suck for a while during the learning process. But I love that feeling of wailing on the ball.

[pkshooter]

Many people over rate top spin doesn't mean that top spin is over rated. There's kids on my highschool team that just lob thinking oooooo top spin, and then there's the guy at the park no one plays with because he just junk balls all the time. The simple tennis philosophy as I know it is, hit it hard and deep -> step into the net. Top spin for the average joe is not for the high bounce, or rather shouldn't be, but for how it makes the ball dip with in the lines.

[pkshooter]

People over rate top spin, that doesn't mean that top spin is over rated

[10isfreak]

Originally Posted by pkshooter

Many people over rate top spin doesn't mean that top spin is over rated. There's kids on my highschool team that just lob thinking oooooo top spin, and then there's the guy at the park no one plays with because he just junk balls all the time. The simple tennis philosophy as I know it is, hit it hard and deep -> step into the net. Top spin for the average joe is not for the high bounce, or rather shouldn't be, but for how it makes the ball dip with in the lines.

Actually, getting some bounce can be a good way of neutralizing your opponent. I personally use loopier strokes as a variation and I tend to aim forehand side for these... for what I do, it works well: it‘s very hard to be incisive off an heavy ball without risking too much, besides the kick often pulls my opponent off the court.

However, that‘s me and that‘s what is fit for the situation... different situations call for adjustments and different player use different qualities as their staple shots. Some do hit good and heavy forehands. Of course, between moonballs and heavy forehands, there is a margin...

As for your emphasis on deeper strokes, it‘s always making the best use of the court‘s geometry. The harder and flatter you hit, the more linear and the less angular your game becomes: it makes it easier for your opponent to cover the court. I might work for you because of some of your personal qualities, but it‘s not a one size fits all advice.

[tennis_balla]

Footwork is waaaaay over rated. Actually, its not even necessary in tennis. Its absolutely useless! All you gotta do is just hit aces and service winners when you're serving and hit winners off your returns. That's it! Pfff, tactics who needs those when you can cream the ball like Rosol at Wimbledon.


True story.

[KenC]

Originally Posted by pkshooter

People over rate top spin, that doesn't mean that top spin is over rated

This is what I've always said. Yes topspin is an important element but it is not the end all be all that we think it is. Most people don't do near the damage the think they do with "all" their topspin. What people fail to understand is that all the better players seem to hit with a lot of topspin today and we are used to responding to it. No one ever beat me because of their massive topspin, and I often play on red clay. Who here will admit to being beat by someone just because they put too much topspin on the ball and he/she couldn't handle it?

Don't know the exact numbers (it's variable) but most club players are operating at 5,6,7 to 1 ratio of unforced errors to winners ..(maybe more) REal improvement is made in the unforced error department, which is where topspin really comes into play. Forget about the merits of topspin as a winner producer, it simply allows a player to start to swing out and actually have a chance to keep the ball in play... and perhaps start to execute 4 and 5 ball shot patterns..

[Relinquis]

topspin helps with long rallies and gives you flexibility when constructing points.

also, you need a bit of topspin for some passing shots, where you want the ball to dip below the netcord. not all topspin is Nadal-esque.