Player self rated too high - what now?

[omega4]

I just had to chime in here as I'm almost in the same situation to some extent.

I'm 41 and used to play competitive high school tennis. I would say that I was a decent 4.0 (possibly 4.5) back then but over 20 years later, I'm not even close.

While I'm in great physical shape from working out 6 days a week (weights, cardio) and playing lots of golf, I'd say humbly that I'm probably a 2.5 now, if not lower!

While I think I can make it back to a 4.0 in a year or two, I don't want to overestimate my rating. The guidelines for the NTRP ratings state that anyone who has played competitive high school tennis cannot be self rated lower than a 3.0, but I really think I should give myself a 2.5 or even a 2.0.

I don't even own a single can of tennis balls at the moment and don't know what's the preferred brand to get (it was Wilson back in the day).

Originally Posted by beernutz

A player at my club who is mid-thirties and in good shape and who had played high school tennis started back playing last year after a long absence and then at the end of 2012 started playing league, self-rating as a 4.0. I think he decided to self-rate at this level mostly because he got some bad advice about what level he played at and somewhat because he thinks he is better than he really is. He played one Fall 4.0 season and did not have good results even after taking several months before he started league to get his strokes back. His league scores were:
6-1, 6-0 #1 Doubles
6-1, 6-2 #1 Doubles
6-0, 6-1 #2 Doubles
6-0, 6-0 #2 Singles (the guy he played is a really good 4.0)

After those results he wasn't invited to play again on our club's 4.0 team and he is pretty bummed about tennis in general. I'd hate to see him quit league play altogether but I don't have any good advice for him either. I did mention to him that he might consider some flex league play. Does he have any other options?

[Govnor]

2.5 is a low as it gets, that is someone totally new to tennis and barely able to serve in the box. I highly doubt you are a 2.5.

[SwankPeRFection]

Originally Posted by omega4

I just had to chime in here as I'm almost in the same situation to some extent.

I'm 41 and used to play competitive high school tennis. I would say that I was a decent 4.0 (possibly 4.5) back then but over 20 years later, I'm not even close.

While I'm in great physical shape from working out 6 days a week (weights, cardio) and playing lots of golf, I'd say humbly that I'm probably a 2.5 now, if not lower!

While I think I can make it back to a 4.0 in a year or two, I don't want to overestimate my rating. The guidelines for the NTRP ratings state that anyone who has played competitive high school tennis cannot be self rated lower than a 3.0, but I really think I should give myself a 2.5 or even a 2.0.

I don't even own a single can of tennis balls at the moment and don't know what's the preferred brand to get (it was Wilson back in the day).

No offense, but if you played ANY high school tennis for even a year and didn't suck, which you didn't based on the rating you were at before, there's no reason why your mind and body cannot be in enough sync to remember how to hit a ball. There is absolutely no way (even after 20 years) that anyone can go back and not know how to hit a ball due to bad mechanics or something like that. Sure, you might not be as quick on the court or be able to put together points enough initially, but in a few months, you could easily get back in the rhythm. I didn't play tennis for 15 years and went back and my mechanics were still fine. Had to do a little bit of work to get back to being able to judge ball feel and pace/spin properly, but it all came back in a couple of months. Point construction, strategy, physical shape took a bit longer, but certainly not enough to warrant me thinking I needed to be rated a 2.5.

Come on man, who are you kidding here? That's the problem... competitive players from years ago think they can't play anymore due to age or something along those lines, but it's the mechanics of tennis that doesn't go away. I'm sorry, but in 20 years you don't just forget how to hit a ball properly. Timing might be off, but YOU DO NOT FORGET THE MECHANICS. No pro player in history has ever retired from a sport, gone back years later and knew nothing about that sport. It doesn't happen and that's why the USTA staff doesn't buy your crap reasons for appeals.

[omega4]

No offense taken. I agree with you on the point that I think I can get back to a 4.0 form in a few months to half a year of playing. But at the moment, I really think I'm a 2.5 - 3.0. I just don't want to claim a higher NTRP rating that I don't think I can justify and back up with my play at the moment.

With that said, I'm perfectly OK with my rating being increased from a 2.5 or 3.0 to whatever others think it should be. I'm assuming it's easier to increase a low-ball rating than it is to decrease a overestimated rating, but I'm just guessing here.

I also agree with you that one doesn't forget the mechanics of playing tennis. But that's not at issue here. It's a case of where the "mind" is willing, the "body" is weak. Namely, I know what the proper mechanics are. It's executing them on a consistent basis that will take some time, hence my giving myself a lower rating until my game is up to par.

Originally Posted by SwankPeRFection

No offense, but if you played ANY high school tennis for even a year and didn't suck, which you didn't based on the rating you were at before, there's no reason why your mind and body cannot be in enough sync to remember how to hit a ball. There is absolutely no way (even after 20 years) that anyone can go back and not know how to hit a ball due to bad mechanics or something like that. Sure, you might not be as quick on the court or be able to put together points enough initially, but in a few months, you could easily get back in the rhythm. I didn't play tennis for 15 years and went back and my mechanics were still fine. Had to do a little bit of work to get back to being able to judge ball feel and pace/spin properly, but it all came back in a couple of months. Point construction, strategy, physical shape took a bit longer, but certainly not enough to warrant me thinking I needed to be rated a 2.5.

Come on man, who are you kidding here? That's the problem... competitive players from years ago think they can't play anymore due to age or something along those lines, but it's the mechanics of tennis that doesn't go away. I'm sorry, but in 20 years you don't just forget how to hit a ball properly. Timing might be off, but YOU DO NOT FORGET THE MECHANICS. No pro player in history has ever retired from a sport, gone back years later and knew nothing about that sport. It doesn't happen and that's why the USTA staff doesn't buy your crap reasons for appeals.

[IA-SteveB]

If you were ever a 4 or 4.5 there is no way you could possibly regress to a 2.5/3.0 without a major physical factor. Just no way. Years of layoff isn't that big of a deal especially if you have remained in shape. There is a big difference in even a .5 rating and 4->3 is DRASTIC.

[omega4]

Originally Posted by IA-SteveB

If you were ever a 4 or 4.5 there is no way you could possibly regress to a 2.5/3.0 without a major physical factor. Just no way. Years of layoff isn't that big of a deal especially if you have remained in shape.

OK. If I take any flak for "overrating" myself in league tennis play in this first month or so, I'll just send them in your direction.

Deal?

[omega4]

Maybe tennis is different from golf. If I took a 20 year vacation from playing golf, there's no way I could hit a 270 yard drive or hit my approach shots to within 10 ft of the pin in less than a month or so from getting back into playing golf.

But maybe tennis IS that much easier to re-master than golf....

[OrangePower]

Originally Posted by omega4

I just had to chime in here as I'm almost in the same situation to some extent.

I'm 41 and used to play competitive high school tennis. I would say that I was a decent 4.0 (possibly 4.5) back then but over 20 years later, I'm not even close.

While I'm in great physical shape from working out 6 days a week (weights, cardio) and playing lots of golf, I'd say humbly that I'm probably a 2.5 now, if not lower!

While I think I can make it back to a 4.0 in a year or two, I don't want to overestimate my rating. The guidelines for the NTRP ratings state that anyone who has played competitive high school tennis cannot be self rated lower than a 3.0, but I really think I should give myself a 2.5 or even a 2.0.

I don't even own a single can of tennis balls at the moment and don't know what's the preferred brand to get (it was Wilson back in the day).

If you were a 4.0 / 4.5 in HS, and are in decent shape in your early 40's, then there is no way you are lower than a 3.0 now. In fact it is very unlikely even that you are a 3.0, given your age and fitness level. Maybe if you were 60. Most likely you are a 3.5 right now.

Also, when you self-rate, you keep that rating for anywhere from 6-18 months, depending on when you start playing league, and how many matches you play your first season. On the other hand, your improvement will be rapid - you will see a lot of improvement over the first few months. So you need to self rate with that perspective in mind.

Unless of course you are trying to game the system.

[IA-SteveB]

Originally Posted by omega4

Maybe tennis is different from golf. If I took a 20 year vacation from playing golf, there's no way I could hit a 270 yard drive or hit my approach shots to within 10 ft of the pin in less than a month or so from getting back into playing golf.

But maybe tennis IS that much easier to re-master than golf....

Most definitely. Tennis is hitting a big yellow ball with a 100 sq inch racquet.
I was a great golfer in HS but I know it would take me many many rounds to get back to where I was if I even cared about golf anymore. I played HS tennis one year of JV and was a 3 at best. I came back at 40, self rated a 3.5 (not by choice) and am still 3.5 computer rated. The game came back quick and I am much better than I was in HS after 9 months of semi regular play. Still a long way to go to ever get 4. It will take some lessons to do that.

[omega4]

Originally Posted by OrangePower

If you were a 4.0 / 4.5 in HS, and are in decent shape in your early 40's, then there is no way you are lower than a 3.0 now. In fact it is very unlikely even that you are a 3.0, given your age and fitness level. Maybe if you were 60. Most likely you are a 3.5 right now.

Also, when you self-rate, you keep that rating for anywhere from 6-18 months, depending on when you start playing league, and how many matches you play your first season. On the other hand, your improvement will be rapid - you will see a lot of improvement over the first few months. So you need to self rate with that perspective in mind.

Unless of course you are trying to game the system.

I see your point.

OK, 3.5 it is then.

Your explanation was logical and made much more sense than the other poster who was talking about how it's impossible to not forget how to play tennis great after 20+ years or some nonsense like that.

[omega4]

Originally Posted by IA-SteveB

Most definitely. Tennis is hitting a big yellow ball with a 100 sq inch racquet.
I was a great golfer in HS but I know it would take me many many rounds to get back to where I was if I even cared about golf anymore. I played HS tennis one year of JV and was a 3 at best. I came back at 40, self rated a 3.5 (not by choice) and am still 3.5 computer rated. The game came back quick and I am much better than I was in HS after 9 months of semi regular play. Still a long way to go to ever get 4. It will take some lessons to do that.

Maybe that's YOUR situation but it does NOT necessarily mean that it applies to others, such as myself.

[omega4]

Originally Posted by OrangePower

If you were a 4.0 / 4.5 in HS, and are in decent shape in your early 40's, then there is no way you are lower than a 3.0 now. In fact it is very unlikely even that you are a 3.0, given your age and fitness level. Maybe if you were 60. Most likely you are a 3.5 right now.

Also, when you self-rate, you keep that rating for anywhere from 6-18 months, depending on when you start playing league, and how many matches you play your first season. On the other hand, your improvement will be rapid - you will see a lot of improvement over the first few months. So you need to self rate with that perspective in mind.

Unless of course you are trying to game the system.

As for gaming the system, I couldn't care less if I win or lose in league tennis. After all, it's just league tennis.

I just didn't want to overstate my proficiency since I'm just getting back into the game after 20+ years. But as you explained it to me, my self rating needs to take into account where I think I'll be over an extended period of months, and I honestly don't think I'd remain a 2.5 for more than a month or so of playing, so I'll just self rate myself higher then.

[IA-SteveB]

Originally Posted by omega4

Maybe that's YOUR situation but it does NOT necessarily mean that it applies to others, such as myself.

I will bow out of this conversation and let smarter people handle it then. Good luck!

[OrangePower]

As a general comment, I think part of the problem with league and self-rating is that people rush into it too soon... meaning, don't give themselves enough time between picking the game up (again), and self-rating / getting on a league team.

If possible, I think a better approach is to play social tennis for a couple or three months first, and then see where things stand. The level of play after three months is going to be much more of an indication of what it's likely to be for the next year. And also, playing already-rated players over the first few months would take a lot of the guesswork out of self-rating.

At least it did for me. I had no idea of what the self-rating guidelines were, but I knew pretty much what my level was based on comparison with friends who had ratings.

[t135]

Originally Posted by Spokewench

He should try to appeal his rating on the computer - he may be within the numbers to allow the computer to drop him down (assuming he has a C rating).

Definitely this. It is easy and usually works in cases like this.

[SwankPeRFection]

Originally Posted by omega4

No offense taken. I agree with you on the point that I think I can get back to a 4.0 form in a few months to half a year of playing. But at the moment, I really think I'm a 2.5 - 3.0. I just don't want to claim a higher NTRP rating that I don't think I can justify and back up with my play at the moment.

With that said, I'm perfectly OK with my rating being increased from a 2.5 or 3.0 to whatever others think it should be. I'm assuming it's easier to increase a low-ball rating than it is to decrease a overestimated rating, but I'm just guessing here.

I also agree with you that one doesn't forget the mechanics of playing tennis. But that's not at issue here. It's a case of where the "mind" is willing, the "body" is weak. Namely, I know what the proper mechanics are. It's executing them on a consistent basis that will take some time, hence my giving myself a lower rating until my game is up to par.

Take your 3.5 and play your 3.5 league. If you get beat, you'll end up at 3.0. If you end up winning you'll either stay at 3.5 or get bumped. There's a reason why the self-rate system asks certain questions and why you get a certain rating.

As for the other nonsense you apparently think I'm talking about. Am I to understand that after 20 years of not playing competitive 4.0-4.5 tennis, you've forgotten how to hold/swing a racquet, how to serve, how to hit a ball? Ya, and I'm talking nonsense. It's not like you got hit in the head, paralyzed for 20 years and have to learn to walk all over again. Come on man!

[sam_p]

Originally Posted by OrangePower

As a general comment, I think part of the problem with league and self-rating is that people rush into it too soon... meaning, don't give themselves enough time between picking the game up (again), and self-rating / getting on a league team.

If possible, I think a better approach is to play social tennis for a couple or three months first, and then see where things stand. The level of play after three months is going to be much more of an indication of what it's likely to be for the next year. And also, playing already-rated players over the first few months would take a lot of the guesswork out of self-rating.

At least it did for me. I had no idea of what the self-rating guidelines were, but I knew pretty much what my level was based on comparison with friends who had ratings.

Absolutely spot on advice - give yourself 6 months or so of hitting around, it will come back. I played competitively in high school in the early 80's. Left HS and didn't pick up a racket more than twice for 25 years (literally did not pick up a racket). Started playing again about 7 years ago. I just hit around and joined a club to start and after about a year decided to play USTA. Self-rated at 4.0 (although a couple of people tried to entice me to self-rate at 3.5) and had about a 0.600 record the first year playing 4.0 doubles, 8.0 mixed and 7.5 doubles. The next few years my record got better each year and three years ago went to districts with a very strong record and got bumped to 4.5 where I have essentially a 0.500 record since.

The point is, for me the system worked perfectly. I've gotten back into tennis and now play 4-5x a week. I literally can't imagine not playing tennis at this point and am mystified why I gave it up so completely for so long.

[omega4]

Originally Posted by IA-SteveB

I will bow out of this conversation and let smarter people handle it then. Good luck!

I apologize if I offended you and didn't mean to deter your participating in the conversation.

I just didn't feel good about someone thinking that I was lying or exaggerating about the current state of my tennis game (almost non-existent after 20 years since I've last played competitive tennis), despite my previous proficiency.

I'm really not trying to sandbag and give myself a lower rating to easily beat unsuspecting league opponents. For me, league tennis is all about meeting new people over a fun tennis match. While winning is preferable to losing, I won't get upset over league tennis match losses. I mean, it's JUST league tennis LOL.

[omega4]

Originally Posted by OrangePower

As a general comment, I think part of the problem with league and self-rating is that people rush into it too soon... meaning, don't give themselves enough time between picking the game up (again), and self-rating / getting on a league team.

If possible, I think a better approach is to play social tennis for a couple or three months first, and then see where things stand. The level of play after three months is going to be much more of an indication of what it's likely to be for the next year. And also, playing already-rated players over the first few months would take a lot of the guesswork out of self-rating.

At least it did for me. I had no idea of what the self-rating guidelines were, but I knew pretty much what my level was based on comparison with friends who had ratings.

That's actually a great idea, especially if league tennis had some sort of monetary prize ramification.

But since most tennis leagues are about fun and pride, why should player returning back to tennis have to delay getting in on the fun just because they're game is in flux? Shouldn't the league and USTA be more responsive in adjudicating a new player's rating as he improves and gets back to a proficiency level that he used to enjoy a long time ago?

[omega4]

Originally Posted by SwankPeRFection

Take your 3.5 and play your 3.5 league. If you get beat, you'll end up at 3.0. If you end up winning you'll either stay at 3.5 or get bumped. There's a reason why the self-rate system asks certain questions and why you get a certain rating.

As for the other nonsense you apparently think I'm talking about. Am I to understand that after 20 years of not playing competitive 4.0-4.5 tennis, you've forgotten how to hold/swing a racquet, how to serve, how to hit a ball? Ya, and I'm talking nonsense. It's not like you got hit in the head, paralyzed for 20 years and have to learn to walk all over again. Come on man!

First, my poorly worded post about "nonsense comments" was NOT directed at you, but another member (to whom I've just publicly apologized for).

I can still hold a racquet and remember the rules of tennis more or less. But I've forgotten just how "western" my forehand grip used to be. I've forgotten just where "no man's land" is exactly on the court. I've forgotten just how much I should toss the ball inside the baseline during my service toss and just how high I used to toss it.

I could go on and on, but you get the point. Can I beat a beginner to the game? Probably.

Could I beat some of these junior players competing in USTA tournaments? Probably not at the moment.

My inconsistency is my biggest weakness at the moment. Namely, being able to hit a number of consecutive strokes without having the ball end up in the net.

This is exactly why I won't be giving up golf completely as I get back into tennis. I don't want to have to re-learn how to hit a fade or draw shot off the tee with a driver or long iron.