My thoughts on competitiveness

[dizzlmcwizzl]

Originally Posted by omega4

I hate to break it to you but at the end of the day, you're victories and league standing mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.

I hate it when people make this argument. It adds absolutely no value to a tennis discussion board. As is true in almost everything in life you do, nothing means something in the cosmic scheme of things.

If you spend 15 hours a week volunteering at homeless shelters I will give you that this amounts to a substantial contribution to society. But unless you invented physics, get sainted, or develop a cure for cancer ... in 1000 years no one one this planet will even know you existed.

So please, just let us enjoy our perversions. For us, one of which includes obsessing about our league tennis experience and posting about it on the competitive tennis discussion board.

[spot]

Originally Posted by omega4

Possibly perhaps. I do know some golfers who can only sustain their interest in golf by betting money so what you say is true for some.

Personally, I will play a sport (e.g. golf, tennis) because I'm interested and excited about them. Otherwise, I won't play them. I don't need an ulterior motive like gambling or the need to win to keep me interested in doing something.

And there is a difference between playing tennis and playing league tennis. If I don't care who wins or not then I will just go play pickup tennis with friends. For me to get up early and drive 45 minutes to a match then I do it because I like the camaraderie of being on a team and I want the team to be successful. I wouldn't play on a team that didn't care about winning- in that case I would simply play pickup tennis on the schedule that is convenient for me.

The important thing is balance. Our teams are competitively run and we play the best players as often as they are available while the lower lines will play less. But we also value the social aspect and regularly have 6 courts full for practice nights and have 15 or 16 people going out for drinks afterward. People may be disappointed if they lose a match but they will still going to stick around and cheer on the team even if they lose. This balance has been very successful and twice we have split the team as we have had more and more people want to join. Now we have 3 teams that operate together and it works out great.

But someone who doesn't care about winning in league tennis would likely hate our team. Its just about finding the right team balance for you. Though it sounds like for you then playing flex league would be a better choice overall since you get no benefit out of the league aspect.

[omega4]

You DO know that you can continue to enjoy your "perversions" as you put it by ignoring this thread, right?

Please allow us to continue discussing why some people enjoy their "perversions" as you put it when at the end of the day, it means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.

My point is that I think winning league tennis victories (via ultra competitiveness) is fleeting whereas the friendships I make (e.g. from league tennis) will last forever.

Originally Posted by dizzlmcwizzl

I hate it when people make this argument. It adds absolutely no value to a tennis discussion board. As is true in almost everything in life you do, nothing means something in the cosmic scheme of things.

If you spend 15 hours a week volunteering at homeless shelters I will give you that this amounts to a substantial contribution to society. But unless you invented physics, get sainted, or develop a cure for cancer ... in 1000 years no one one this planet will even know you existed.

So please, just let us enjoy our perversions. For us, one of which includes obsessing about our league tennis experience and posting about it on the competitive tennis discussion board.

[omega4]

I'm all for balance. I like to win. The difference is I won't let winning or losing get in the way of making new friends and enjoying my time playing some quality tennis.

In other words, you will NEVER find me sulking off in a corner or throwing a temper tantrum because my league tennis team lost its matches or didn't make the playoffs.

The fact that I'll make new friends and enjoy my time playing quality tennis with good people means that I've already "won" in something like league tennis.

Originally Posted by spot

And there is a difference between playing tennis and playing league tennis. If I don't care who wins or not then I will just go play pickup tennis with friends. For me to get up early and drive 45 minutes to a match then I do it because I like the camaraderie of being on a team and I want the team to be successful. I wouldn't play on a team that didn't care about winning- in that case I would simply play pickup tennis on the schedule that is convenient for me.

The important thing is balance. Our teams are competitively run and we play the best players as often as they are available while the lower lines will play less. But we also value the social aspect and regularly have 6 courts full for practice nights and have 15 or 16 people going out for drinks afterward. People may be disappointed if they lose a match but they will still going to stick around and cheer on the team even if they lose. This balance has been very successful and twice we have split the team as we have had more and more people want to join. Now we have 3 teams that operate together and it works out great.

But someone who doesn't care about winning in league tennis would likely hate our team. Its just about finding the right team balance for you. Though it sounds like for you then playing flex league would be a better choice overall since you get no benefit out of the league aspect.

[Fintft]

Like I've learned from a chess coach, one only competes to himself, so as long as one does his best and makes progress, one should be happy.

Now, personally, I need to do a better job of learning how to relax, b/c I tend to play way worse in match situations. And then I get upset b/c my level of play has dropped, win or lose.

I think that it take a few years of playing (at least for me) to handle that and build confidence (it has happened in other sports as well).

Some things help, like recently a tip that keeping moving all the time, between hits, helps staying relaxed and also that video about hitting with "minimal effort". Plus the fact that power should come last.

[Tennis Truth]

Is the OP trolling here? Who writes that they are the only person who thinks some people take league tennis too seriously? Seriously? There are numerous threads about this topic.

Where I live, playing league tennis is NOT the best way to "make new friends." Most of the teams are from different towns, and there is travel involved.

A much better idea is to make friends who live by you, and who play at the same places you play.

Of all of the potential ways to "make new friends," while playing tennis, I think league tennis would be at the bottom.

Try taking a class or clinic. Sign up for a group lesson. Go to a social mixer. Talk with the pro who can probably set you up with potential partners.

[Tennis Truth]

1) There is a relatively small percentage of people who take it too seriously, and who can make a match less fun for some people.
2) The vast majority want to win, and play fairly.
3) There is another small percentage who take league tennis less seriously than most. These people play for a different reason than most on their team. They may just want to get some exercise, or make new friends, and they don't really care about the match result. They feel that if they get along well with their opponent, that is a "win" for them. These people usually win less, because they don't really care about the result.

It may also depend somewhat on the level of play. At higher levels, people have been playing longer usually, and I see less bad behavior. It can still happen, but there are fewer players at the higher levels, and if you are a jerk to too many people, no one will want to play with you.

[AR15]

Originally Posted by Tennis Truth

1) There is a relatively small percentage of people who take it too seriously, and who can make a match less fun for some people.
2) The vast majority want to win, and play fairly.
3) There is another small percentage who take league tennis less seriously than most. These people play for a different reason than most on their team. They may just want to get some exercise, or make new friends, and they don't really care about the match result. They feel that if they get along well with their opponent, that is a "win" for them. These people usually win less, because they don't really care about the result.

It may also depend somewhat on the level of play. At higher levels, people have been playing longer usually, and I see less bad behavior. It can still happen, but there are fewer players at the higher levels, and if you are a jerk to too many people, no one will want to play with you.

You don't have to act like a jerk to be taking your league tennis too seriously. I recently had an older player tell me that he had played for years and years, and sadly just realized that in all those years he really never got to know or develop friendships with the people he played with and against.

When I heard this, it made me think of all the times I played, and didn't take the time to really talk with and enjoy the people I was playing with. I'm making an effort to change this, by putting my tennis in perspective, and bringing more than just my tennis to the courts with me.

[TheCanadian]

This is why I've stopped competing. I have enough stress in my life and I don't need to get into fights with jerks about some meaningless match in the grand scheme of things. We're not even playing for money.

My last experience was playing a heavy top spin, clay court specialist with extreme grips who wins his matches because he gets the ball back and is in excellent shape. We played two games on clay for about 25 minutes. At the end of it, I went to get my towell and was towelling off without drinking or sitting down when he told me: "this is no time for a break!" I looked at him and said, "are you going to count the seconds? I'm just here to have fun." When I walked up to the line to serve, he turned around and his back was facing me. I picked up my things and left. This guy has a reputation in my neck of the woods for being an ***. I told him that while leaving and he walked up to the fence and grabbed his genitals like a monkey in a zoo.

So, he constantly gets into insane fights over line calls (he frequently walks to the other side to check marks...I thought that was against the rules...can somebody verify?), and was many times very close to getting into fist fights with people. I'm not a soccer hooligan.

I don't need this hassle in my life.

[buruan]

I think both sides have ups and downs.
I personally stopped playing league tennis, not because of the guys on the other side of the net, but for the guys on my side of the net.

I just cant get competitive spirits going when playing tennis, I dont want to talk strategy, and I dont want to single out the weaker player.
I want everyone to enjoy the game.

With that attitude I quickly came to realize that most of the guys on teams don't agree and want to win.
So in order to be fair to them I stopped playing league and became a sparring partner for the team. They call me up on every practice but I dont need to play the matches.

Works for both.

Being ultra competitive is not a bad thing as its made out to be many times, and neither is being not competitive at all.

[spot]

Originally Posted by TheCanadian

This is why I've stopped competing. I have enough stress in my life and I don't need to get into fights with jerks about some meaningless match in the grand scheme of things. We're not even playing for money.

My last experience was playing a heavy top spin, clay court specialist with extreme grips who wins his matches because he gets the ball back and is in excellent shape. We played two games on clay for about 25 minutes. At the end of it, I went to get my towell and was towelling off without drinking or sitting down when he told me: "this is no time for a break!" I looked at him and said, "are you going to count the seconds? I'm just here to have fun." When I walked up to the line to serve, he turned around and his back was facing me. I picked up my things and left. This guy has a reputation in my neck of the woods for being an ***. I told him that while leaving and he walked up to the fence and grabbed his genitals like a monkey in a zoo.

So, he constantly gets into insane fights over line calls (he frequently walks to the other side to check marks...I thought that was against the rules...can somebody verify?), and was many times very close to getting into fist fights with people. I'm not a soccer hooligan.

I don't need this hassle in my life.

To be honest it sounds like you were the one who was unreasonable here. It sounds like you let his reputation cloud what was pretty reasonable behavior into making you act like a middle schooler so you called him a name then took your ball and went home.

Him telling you that you have only played 2 games and that it isn't a changeover is reasonable. Maybe his attitude was far more confrontational than you wrote but just him saying "this is no time for a break" is reasonable. Him asking to see marks on clay is reasonable and entirely within the rules. Him not being in ready position when you wanted to serve is reasonable.

There are a ton of things that he could have done that I think would make it perfectly legitimate for you to walk off- but you didn't mention those in this story.

[omega4]

Well, to be fair, I will talk strategy with my teammate and single out weaker players as needed, as I do want to help my team win its tennis league matches.

What I will NOT do is ignore the other team or give them the "cold shoulder" treatment. I will be friendly with them and engage in good conversation between points and before / after the match.

Hopefully, they will be like-minded and reciprocate and be just as friendly towards me. As some have mentioned, it might lead to some non-league friendly tennis games down the road.

Originally Posted by buruan

I think both sides have ups and downs.
I personally stopped playing league tennis, not because of the guys on the other side of the net, but for the guys on my side of the net.

I just cant get competitive spirits going when playing tennis, I dont want to talk strategy, and I dont want to single out the weaker player.
I want everyone to enjoy the game.

With that attitude I quickly came to realize that most of the guys on teams don't agree and want to win.
So in order to be fair to them I stopped playing league and became a sparring partner for the team. They call me up on every practice but I dont need to play the matches.

Works for both.

Being ultra competitive is not a bad thing as its made out to be many times, and neither is being not competitive at all.

[omega4]

I don't know about that.

Canadian was just toweling off. It wasn't like he was taking a formal break, since he wasn't sitting down and eating/drinking.

If someone is sweating and wants to towel off, who am I to tell them that they can't do so? I'm OK with an opponent toweling off after a point within a game and would not say anything to them about it.

Personally, I would not walk out on a match, as I'm already there to play. But I would ignore the offending player and any comments or actions directed my way.

Life's too short to spend worrying about what people like that say, think, or do....

Originally Posted by spot

To be honest it sounds like you were the one who was unreasonable here. It sounds like you let his reputation cloud what was pretty reasonable behavior into making you act like a middle schooler so you called him a name then took your ball and went home.

Him telling you that you have only played 2 games and that it isn't a changeover is reasonable. Maybe his attitude was far more confrontational than you wrote but just him saying "this is no time for a break" is reasonable. Him asking to see marks on clay is reasonable and entirely within the rules. Him not being in ready position when you wanted to serve is reasonable.

There are a ton of things that he could have done that I think would make it perfectly legitimate for you to walk off- but you didn't mention those in this story.

[spot]

Every team needs to find its balance. For men's we have 3 teams and they are all on different scales of the competitive/social scale.

The first team is totally cut throat- the guys are there to win and so they add whoever they can to improve the roster. The lineups are done entirely with team goals in mind. We let anyone play on that team that would like to but you are not guaranteed any playtime.

The lowest team is far more balanced. Everyone will play 3 of the 7 weeks if they have good availability (though if you only make yourself available 3 times you should not expect to play all 3) But in the biggest weeks and in playoffs the team will play the best players. This is a good balance because people don't get pigeonholed and they can stretch to play a line higher than they otherwise might. We keep the roster on this team a bit smaller to make sure that everyone gets a lot of playtime.

There is one guy on the team who we have forbidden to become captain because he wants what we call the 'utopian' team. He wants everyone on the roster to play the same amount without regard to skill or to the opposition. He wants to play to improve and simply doesn't want the pressure of winning or losing to interfere with that. It BOTHERS him that the best players on the other teams will play every week they are available. But once again- the reason I wake up early to drive 45 minutes to play is that I care about team goals. If the team goals weren't there then I would just wake up at my normal time and go play a pickup match. This guy is being squeezed down the lineup a bit so we will see how long he remains happy on the team.

[TheCanadian]

Originally Posted by spot

To be honest it sounds like you were the one who was unreasonable here. It sounds like you let his reputation cloud what was pretty reasonable behavior into making you act like a middle schooler so you called him a name then took your ball and went home.

Him telling you that you have only played 2 games and that it isn't a changeover is reasonable. Maybe his attitude was far more confrontational than you wrote but just him saying "this is no time for a break" is reasonable. Him asking to see marks on clay is reasonable and entirely within the rules. Him not being in ready position when you wanted to serve is reasonable.

There are a ton of things that he could have done that I think would make it perfectly legitimate for you to walk off- but you didn't mention those in this story.

If you think his behaviour is "reasonable", I'm glad we'll never play.

[spot]

omega- I think its reasonable for him to go towel off. I also think its reasonable for the opponent to say that it wasn't a changeover. It doesn't bother me if people grab a quick drink between games but I can understand why someone would say something. If they got into an argument about him toweling off then its a different matter- simply saying that "this isn't time for a break" doesnt' get anywhere near the line where it is reasonable to quit the match.

[spot]

Originally Posted by TheCanadian

If you think his behaviour is "reasonable", I'm glad we'll never play.

Yeah- I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out what got you so worked up over this. As far as you said he

1. Told you that after the 2nd game that it wasn't a change over.
2. Wasn't ready when you went to serve.
3. Asks to see marks on clay (when this is explicitly allowed in the rules)

It definitely sounds like you made the correct decision to quit playing league tennis.

[TheCanadian]

Originally Posted by spot

Yeah- I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out what got you so worked up over this. As far as you said he

1. Told you that after the 2nd game that it wasn't a change over.
2. Wasn't ready when you went to serve.
3. Asks to see marks on clay (when this is explicitly allowed in the rules)

It definitely sounds like you made the correct decision to quit playing league tennis.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

1.) He told me that it was "no time for a break" when I was towelling for maybe 10 seconds after two games that lasted 25 minutes in the blistering sun. Maybe that's your definition of reasonable behaviour, but not mine.

2.) He turned his back towards me on purpose just when I was about to serve. It was an obvious mental ploy and not because he wasn't ready.

3.) He didn't ask to see marks against me, but he does it all the times with others. He's the only player I can think of who does it so regularly like there's a grand conspiracy in the city to cheat him; he makes bad calls himself all the time. He was banned from re-joining our Sunday league, so he's definitely a problem. Everyone in the city knows about him and his reputation is pretty bad.

At any rate, if you have no issues with his behaviour it's probably because there's a similarity, in that case I'm really happy I don't have to play people like you. Life's too short.

[omega4]

Originally Posted by spot

omega- I think its reasonable for him to go towel off. I also think its reasonable for the opponent to say that it wasn't a changeover. It doesn't bother me if people grab a quick drink between games but I can understand why someone would say something. If they got into an argument about him toweling off then its a different matter- simply saying that "this isn't time for a break" doesnt' get anywhere near the line where it is reasonable to quit the match.

I see where you're coming from. For me, I thought the other person was being a bit anal by mentioning that it wasn't a change over, even if he was being reasonable. All Canadian wanted to do was towel off his sweat.

While they didn't get into an argument per se, the other player seemed to want to start one in effect by saying what he did to Canadian. My thoughts again are along the lines of "allowing an opponent to towel off his sweat or get a drink" isn't that much of a big deal to mention to my opponent.

But I admit, I'm pretty easy going when it comes to little things like this. I figure there are bigger issues to stress over during a match. If I beat my opponent, I want it to be by through my skill, not by denying my opponent little niceties like toweling off or getting a drink.

[omega4]

I don't blame you for walking out on behavior like that. Your opponent wasn't exactly acting in the best spirits of the game, even if it can be argued that what he did wasn't entirely unreasonable under the guise of gamesmanship.

I think I would have continued playing the match if I were in your position, only if to see if I could beat my opponent and "stuff" my victory in his face. However, I would not have bothered to engage him in friendly conversation or bother playing a friendly non-league tennis match on our own.

To be honest, sometimes players simply don't know any better. I've corrected some fellow golfers' behaviors on many occasions, with most thanking me because they didn't realize that what they were doing or saying would be regarded as offensive.

However, I don't think that was the case with your opponent in question.

I saw a USTA regional tournament last week where 2 girls that were 11 or 12 years old playing in a singles match where questioning just about EVERY call that their opponents made. A referee had to be called in to stop the girls from bickering with each other over every point.

It's a little sad when children learn at an early age to be so antagonistic towards their opponents.

Originally Posted by TheCanadian

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

1.) He told me that it was "no time for a break" when I was towelling for maybe 10 seconds after two games that lasted 25 minutes in the blistering sun. Maybe that's your definition of reasonable behaviour, but not mine.

2.) He turned his back towards me on purpose just when I was about to serve. It was an obvious mental ploy and not because he wasn't ready.

3.) He didn't ask to see marks against me, but he does it all the times with others. He's the only player I can think of who does it so regularly like there's a grand conspiracy in the city to cheat him; he makes bad calls himself all the time. He was banned from re-joining our Sunday league, so he's definitely a problem. Everyone in the city knows about him and his reputation is pretty bad.

At any rate, if you have no issues with his behaviour it's probably because there's a similarity, in that case I'm really happy I don't have to play people like you. Life's too short.