To 4.5 Guys: "Get Out And Stay Out!!"

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by damazing

It sounded like you had a nice match - you did well to win, because your male opponent just got bumped down from 4.5 last year and his 4.0 partner is a capable player.

Oh, really?

That is so interesting. See, the male opponent had a service return that was amazing. My partner was serving hard and high to his BH, but he hit these insane slice returns. I could tell he was a really good player. But a recent move-down? Now I feel really good about that match! (Note to male opponent: You should have picked on me more, 'cause I would have buckled with the slightest bit of pressure).

The 3.5 woman who handed out the bagel is a buddy. She keeps not getting bumped up but she doesn't mope or try to game the computer to become a 4.0. Among my 3.5 friends, she alone has the right attitude about it. She gets out there with these 4.5 dudes, smokes everyone and goes to playoffs year in year out. She figures she might as well enjoy the ride.

[dizzlmcwizzl]

When the match ups are right I love, love, love 8.0 mixed.

If we are playing a 4.0/4.0 combo I get to be the big dog on the court. The match is almost totally in my control. If I am playing well the only way they can attack my partner is from defensive positions and that gives her the advantage she needs. If I am playing poorly, she gets hammered.

Unfortunately, to often blowouts happen.

I am a low 4.5, but usually this is more than enough to handle all but the best 4.0 combos. However, when I play a real 4.5 ... someone that knows what they are doing I am totally cooked.

SO begrudgingly, I think I agree with you here Cindy ... and I would not go home crying if I had to give it up. To be honest, most players that make the 4.5 level play enough as it is ...

[Mike Y]

4.0/4.0 vs. 4.5/3.5 is a different game. Maybe 4.5s shouldn't play 8.0 mixed, but it does eliminate playing opportunities for 4.5 men. I personally wouldn't care that much, but it would be hard for me to play Mixed if 9.0 was my only option. I practically had to beg to be on a 9.0 team, and we weren't very good, I only played two matches, both losses, and both matches I had a 4.0 partner. There just aren't very many 4.5 women to go around for the 4.5 guys.

But playing 8.0 mixed does allow me to play with friends that I otherwise would not be able to play with, which is nice. The problem is that there is such a huge range of 4.5s out there. I think most people wouldn't have a problem playing against me, though I usually win at 8.0 mixed, but I don't really blow anyone out, my game is very balanced and defense-oriented and I am not physically imposing. On the other hand, there is a guy on my 8.0 mixed team who is about 6'6", with a huge lefty serve. When he hits his kick serve, it often bounces over the woman's head and she has no shot at it, even good 4.0 women have no shot at returning the serve. But yet the rest of his game can be error-prone and he is beatable by the right players.

But all of this is kind of a moot point, because the USTA is not going to take less money and restrict the number of leagues that those 4.5s can play in.

[chatt_town]

Cindy,

You are asking that they have say then...4.0 mixed as opposed to 8.0 combo mixed. I would have no problem with that. It would force 4.5 guys to play against 4.5 women. Some of them would be able to handle it but most would probably not. It's just a difference in men and women. I do think the women that are 4.5 tend to have a more leyton Hewitt c'mon type attitude though so it won't be as bad. I tend not to play those 8.0 mixed leagues for the same reasons you mentioned though. The tourneys I play in have 8.5 combos and not 8.0. Actually they have both so it keeps a lot of the 4.5 guys in the 8.5 but there are some that still play 8.0.

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Of 8.0 mixed, that is.

Now, you 4.5 guys know I love ya, right? You're awesome. You can hit your spots, you can hit wicked slice, you can bewilder the ladies with your spins and pace, you can utterly destroy the serves of pretty much any 4.0 woman.

But OrangePower is totally right. Mixed needs to be changed so you 4.5 guys are not permitted to play 8.0 mixed.

Take last night.

Our 8.0 mixed team had a match. I played Court One with my 4.0 partner, against two 4.0s. What a great match it was! Lots of exciting points and great shots. The guys went at each other, but the ladies got in on the act. The score was 7-5, 6-4.

Ah, but it was a different story on Courts 2 and 3. We fielded to 4.0/4.0 pairs, but our opponents fielded two 4.5/3.5 pairs. Scores were 6-0, 6-0 and 6-3, 6-3.

After my match, we played for fun a bit. My 4.0 partner and I played against the 4.0 guy and the 4.5 guy who handed out the double bagel to my teammates.

It was ridiculous. Even with the 4.5 guy holding back, we stood no chance against him. He was 6'6" tall -- it was like playing Del Potro.

Come on. USTA league tennis is supposed to be competitive, and allowing 4.5 guys in 8.0 mixed defeats that goal. I know 4.0 women who simply will not play mixed anymore for fear of running up against a 4.5 guy. It isn't any fun to get aced all night.

Here's my question. If USTA made a rule change, would 4.5 guys lose out on too many playing opportunities? Does 9.0 mixed even exist most places? Do the same problems exist when 3.5 guys play 6.0 mixed and when 4.0 guys play 7.0 mixed?

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Yeah, that is not height you see very often at the low end of league play. Or much of anywhere outside of the friggin' NBA.

Here's the sad thing. When we were playing for fun and it was his turn to serve, he said, "OK, Cindy. How would you like me to serve to you?"

I said, "I want all the spin you've got. Make me look like a clown!"

So. I stink at returning spin serves, but the one thing I know is you have to catch it on the rise. Since it was social, I figured he wouldn't try to put my eye out with a body serve, and besides, we had a deal he would hit spin serves. When he tossed, I sprinted toward the service line and flung myself in the general direction of the ball.

As luck would have it, I returned each of his serves in this clumsy, sad, pathetic fashion. When we had game point on him, he said something like, "OK, time to get serious." He was kidding, but he did add even more spin to his next serve. I sprinted forward again, stuck my butt out, closed my eyes, and swatted at it. It went over. He returned it back to me at about 15% of the pace he could generate if he wanted. I bunted it back to him. He kept lifting the ball up directly to my racket, and finally we won the point and "broke" him.

He should have charged me for his time. 'Cause we weren't "playing." He was "teaching."

Don't get me wrong. He was a delight. He just is way too good for 8.0 mixed.

Isn't running when he is tossing a hindrance?

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Isn't running when he is tossing a hindrance?

No. A player may change position at any time.

Besides, if it was a hindrance to him, it would be because he was laughing too hard to play.

[floridatennisdude]

The problem usually isn't the 4.5 guy. It's usually that the 3.5 lady is under rated and the captain recruited her to play with the stronger partner and dominate. Thus, the matchup is more like an 8.5 team playing an 8.0 team.

I rarely see 3.5 women playing in 8.0 mixed that couldn't hang in a 4.0 women's league.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

No. A player may change position at any time.

Besides, if it was a hindrance to him, it would be because he was laughing too hard to play.

Running forward is a little too drastic. I will let woodrow weigh in on this one.

[tennismonkey]

i'm the guy who played cindysphinx's team the other night. we played #3 and won 6-3, 6-3.

i'm a recent bump up to 4.5 and with the exception of a pretty decent serve - i'm a very low end 4.5. my partner on the other hand is a 3.5 lady who is very tall and likes to rush the net. she could easily play 4.0 women's league.

our opponents were a 4.0 guy who was low to mid level 4.0 in my estimation. some solid groundstrokes and serve but very inconsistent and volleys were not a strength. his 4.0 partner was a low to mid level gal with lots of trickery and deception and good touch but very little power.

not a humble brag but my partner and i were not playing our best game - a lot of that was our opponents frustrating us with the guy giving us not exactly textbook shots and the girl giving us a lot of softball, moonball, slow speed stuff. but at no point did we feel we didn't have the match in hand.

my partner easily hit 75% or more of the shots with our opponents hitting as much as possible to her. to counter that we did a lot of planned and unplanned poaching. or i sat back at the baseline and waited for a lob to go over my partner's head and try and take a point over again from there.

and if it makes cindy feel any better, my teammate on court #2 is a very strong 4.5 (sadly not the strongest i've seen but he's up there) and he pretty much toys with me too when we practice. i think that's the circle of life.

[Angle Queen]

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude

The problem usually isn't the 4.5 guy. It's usually that the 3.5 lady is under rated and the captain recruited her to play with the stronger partner and dominate. Thus, the matchup is more like an 8.5 team playing an 8.0 team.

This.

Originally Posted by goober

We have 9.0 mixed and 10.0 mixed last time I checked. But 4.5s are all over the rosters of the top 8.0 teams. I have said this previously but they really need to change it to straight levels- 4.0 mixed or 4.5 mixed or 7.5 and 8.5 mixed with the rule the female cannot have a lower rating than the male. That would make the matches more competitive and interesting for everybody.

And this.

And now, Cindy, you see why I'm not playing any more USTA mixed.

[pennc94]

As a 4.5 male, I have also abandoned 8.0 mixed.

It is not fun. It forces you to abandon traditional doubles strategy.

I agree with the poster that suggested straight up 4.0 mixed or 4.5 mixed.

I would take it one step further:

Either do not allow seniors to play 18+, or rate them down 0.5 (so a 4.0 senior plays as a 3.5 in mixed). In my experience, this applies more to the ladies. I have played against 4.5 senior ladies and they are nowhere near a 4.5 man and nowhere near a younger female 4.5.

[omega4]

Originally Posted by pennc94

As a 4.5 male, I have also abandoned 8.0 mixed.

It is not fun. It forces you to abandon traditional doubles strategy.

I agree with the poster that suggested straight up 4.0 mixed or 4.5 mixed.

I would take it one step further:

Either do not allow seniors to play 18+, or rate them down 0.5 (so a 4.0 senior plays as a 3.5 in mixed). In my experience, this applies more to the ladies. I have played against 4.5 senior ladies and they are nowhere near a 4.5 man and nowhere near a younger female 4.5.

That's the nice thing about golf handicap indexes. When you play against another handicap, you know that's their handicap skill level REGARDLESS of their age or home golf course.

In other words, an 18 year old with a handicap index of 10 will be fairly matched against a 70 year old with a handicap index of 10.

[Angle Queen]

Originally Posted by omega4

That's the nice thing about golf handicap indexes. When you play against another handicap, you know that's their handicap skill level REGARDLESS of their age or home golf course.

In other words, an 18 year old with a handicap index of 10 will be fairly matched against a 70 year old with a handicap index of 10.

Without opening an already much-debated subject, NTRP is supposed to be (relatively) independent of age or gender....although we all know it's not and even USTA says this:

5. Does the NTRP rate men and women on the same scale?

A. The NTRP is used to rate both men and women, but men's and women's ratings are not intended to be equivalent. When rating themselves, players should use players of the same gender as reference points. However, for those individuals wishing to compete against players of the opposite gender, the following can be use as a guide. At approximately the 3.5 rating for a man, a woman with a 4.0 rating will be competitive. When a man reaches the 5.0 level or above a woman needs to be approximately 1.0 higher in order to be competitive.

emphasis mine and from this USTA link on FAQs about NTRP

That being said, why does USTA allow such mismatched combinations as a 4.5M/3.5W in mixed competition at all?

[goober]

Originally Posted by omega4

That's the nice thing about golf handicap indexes. When you play against another handicap, you know that's their handicap skill level REGARDLESS of their age or home golf course.

In other words, an 18 year old with a handicap index of 10 will be fairly matched against a 70 year old with a handicap index of 10.

Unless you are playing for money or a tournament. Then all the sudden the guy with the 10 handicap has miraculously worked itself down to a 15-20 handicap.

[cknobman]

IDK to be honest I dont really think it matters much if the guy is a 4.0 or a 4.5.

I have been playing in a mixed doubles league for several years now and from my experience the matches are almost always decided by which male can break down/exploit the other teams female the most often.

I am a 4.0 and so is my partner but we have played against every variation of the 3.5-4.5 pairings.

It boils down to every male either overpowering, spinning, or exploiting the opposing teams female player.
I rarely (if ever) see a 4.0 male that cannot easily handle a 4.0 woman and most of the time even the 3.5 men can handle 4.0 women because even if the woman has good strokes her movement is always the deal breaker. Women react slower and are less explosive in their movement so its all too easy to get them deep then hit it short and win the point.

Whether the guy is 4.5 or not really isnt a huge difference unless when his female partner is serving your teams return game isnt good enough to get past him. Usually a 3.5 females serve is "tee time" for the other team and its easy to break her.

[BHud]

Um...why would you want to play mixed doubles anyway...unless you're single of course...seems like a good alternative to match.com.

[goober]

Originally Posted by BHud

Um...why would you want to play mixed doubles anyway...unless you're single of course...seems like a good alternative to match.com.

Sure if you are into middle age housewives and seniors which seem to be the 2 biggest groups in league tennis. Single females in their 20s and 30s make up a distinct minority.

[cknobman]

Originally Posted by goober

Sure if you are into middle age housewives and seniors which seem to be the 2 biggest groups in league tennis. Single females in their 20s and 30s make up a distinct minority.

Agreed based on my personal experience.

Most of the young 20-30 females play singles and not a huge number of them are single either.

[spot]

Originally Posted by cknobman

Agreed based on my personal experience.

Most of the young 20-30 females play singles and not a huge number of them are single either.

You guys should move to Atlanta.

[omega4]

Originally Posted by spot

You guys should move to Atlanta.

I did but it seems people get married at a younger age on average in the South....

Then again, there seem to be a higher percentage of younger divorced women in the South as well so I suppose it evens out.