To 4.5 Guys: "Get Out And Stay Out!!"

[spot]

omega- what part of town do you live in and what level do you play?

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by tennismonkey

i'm the guy who played cindysphinx's team the other night. we played #3 and won 6-3, 6-3.

Well, howdy! Good to hear from you again!

i'm a recent bump up to 4.5 and with the exception of a pretty decent serve - i'm a very low end 4.5. my partner on the other hand is a 3.5 lady who is very tall and likes to rush the net. she could easily play 4.0 women's league.

our opponents were a 4.0 guy who was low to mid level 4.0 in my estimation. some solid groundstrokes and serve but very inconsistent and volleys were not a strength. his 4.0 partner was a low to mid level gal with lots of trickery and deception and good touch but very little power.

not a humble brag but my partner and i were not playing our best game - a lot of that was our opponents frustrating us with the guy giving us not exactly textbook shots and the girl giving us a lot of softball, moonball, slow speed stuff. but at no point did we feel we didn't have the match in hand.

my partner easily hit 75% or more of the shots with our opponents hitting as much as possible to her. to counter that we did a lot of planned and unplanned poaching. or i sat back at the baseline and waited for a lob to go over my partner's head and try and take a point over again from there.

and if it makes cindy feel any better, my teammate on court #2 is a very strong 4.5 (sadly not the strongest i've seen but he's up there) and he pretty much toys with me too when we practice. i think that's the circle of life.

Yes, but . . .

What about the idea that the rules should be changed so that 4.5s shouldn't be allowed to play 8.0 mixed?

As you say, you and your partner could have given up even fewer games and added out a beating.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by pennc94

I would take it one step further:

Either do not allow seniors to play 18+, or rate them down 0.5 (so a 4.0 senior plays as a 3.5 in mixed). In my experience, this applies more to the ladies. I have played against 4.5 senior ladies and they are nowhere near a 4.5 man and nowhere near a younger female 4.5.

I don't think age has anything to do with it.

We're talking about doubles. And I am specifically talking about 4.0 women (don't know anything about 4.5 women).

Honestly, I do not feel at any disadvantage against young 4.0 women when we play doubles. If we are all computer-rated, then we should have a competitive match. Perhaps they will be a bit quicker, but perhaps I will have more consistency or variety.

I think the computer already accounts for age just fine.

[TheCheese]

Why not just rate as teams, rather than adding singles NTRP ratings. If you think about it, the system doesn't really make sense, although it is a lot more convenient.

[Andrew Y]

Originally Posted by cknobman

IDK to be honest I dont really think it matters much if the guy is a 4.0 or a 4.5.

I have been playing in a mixed doubles league for several years now and from my experience the matches are almost always decided by which male can break down/exploit the other teams female the most often.

I am a 4.0 and so is my partner but we have played against every variation of the 3.5-4.5 pairings.

It boils down to every male either overpowering, spinning, or exploiting the opposing teams female player.
I rarely (if ever) see a 4.0 male that cannot easily handle a 4.0 woman and most of the time even the 3.5 men can handle 4.0 women because even if the woman has good strokes her movement is always the deal breaker. Women react slower and are less explosive in their movement so its all too easy to get them deep then hit it short and win the point.

Whether the guy is 4.5 or not really isnt a huge difference unless when his female partner is serving your teams return game isnt good enough to get past him. Usually a 3.5 females serve is "tee time" for the other team and its easy to break her.

I agree. Last time i played 8.0 (3 years ago) my partner and i played 4 matches against a 4.5M/3.5F and we won all 4 matches. I want to mention that i am very considerate and rarely go after the woman, no matter what level she is. Yes, it'll be hard to break the 4.5 guy's serve but remember you're facing a 3.5 woman's serve which, no offense to any 3.5's, is not a very daunting task.

Out of all the 4.5 guys we faced, only one of them had a serve that gave me any trouble. They all gave my partner trouble though. Just gotta tell yourself that you won't likely break the guy's serve so you can't waste your opportunities in breaking the woman. You break the woman you'll put more pressure on the guy to "take over".

But i think it's a lot mental with you guys. Welcome the competition. Bring it on. These 4.5 guys aren't superstars. They'll blast some aces/winners by you, make tough drop/half volleys, but they'll make mistakes, they'll shank some balls. But the more you think about the guy being "too good" for 8.0, the worse you're gonna play. I go into every match having confidence in MY game and that's what you guys should do too.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by cknobman

IDK to be honest I dont really think it matters much if the guy is a 4.0 or a 4.5.

I have been playing in a mixed doubles league for several years now and from my experience the matches are almost always decided by which male can break down/exploit the other teams female the most often.

I am a 4.0 and so is my partner but we have played against every variation of the 3.5-4.5 pairings.

It boils down to every male either overpowering, spinning, or exploiting the opposing teams female player.
I rarely (if ever) see a 4.0 male that cannot easily handle a 4.0 woman and most of the time even the 3.5 men can handle 4.0 women because even if the woman has good strokes her movement is always the deal breaker. Women react slower and are less explosive in their movement so its all too easy to get them deep then hit it short and win the point.

Whether the guy is 4.5 or not really isnt a huge difference unless when his female partner is serving your teams return game isnt good enough to get past him. Usually a 3.5 females serve is "tee time" for the other team and its easy to break her.

Mmmm, I think I have to disagree.

First, let's compare apples to apples. Let's assume we are comparing a high 4.0 guy to a high 4.5 guy. My partner and I are 4.0s.

There is simply a world of difference between the high 4.0 guy and the high 4.5 guy. The 4.5 guy will dominate everything. He will hold his serve at love. He will men*ace us at net so we cannot get to his partner when she serves. Meanwhile, his partner can certainly return my serve, and she will block a few of my partner's serves back.

Bottom line: We stand no chance. In all of the mixed matches I have played, I have never taken a set off of a 4.5M/3.5F pair. Against 4.0/4.0 pairs, I have some hard-fought wins.

Sure, the line between 4.0 and 4.5 guys is arbitrary. But once you let 4.5 guys in, you have to let all of them in -- even the ones who are close to 5.0.

There is really no justification for that.

[Cindysphinx]

How about some actual data?

Here are the numbers of 4.5 guys on each team in our league. I will list them in order of the current team standings so you can see to what extent having 4.5 guys on the roster influences results.

First: 3
Second: 5
Third: 1
Fourth: 2
Fifth: 0
Sixth: 3
Seventh: 1
Eighth: 1
Ninth: 1

If you want to be in the top of the standings, recruit 4.5 guys. If you want to be in the bottom, rely on 4.0s.

By the way, there are 155 players in our 8.0 mixed league. Figure half of these are men, so 77 guys. Seventeen of the guys are 4.5s.

[tennismonkey]

cindy -- in an ideal world, i'm not really a fan of a 4.5 guy playing with a 3.5 lady. because it is too large a gap in skill level. and this forces people to play a type of tennis that you don't normally play.

however -- until the USTA decides to have a gender neutral NTRP rating system where a 4.5 guy and a 4.5 woman are equivalent . . . OR a rule that says the woman must be equal or higher rated than the guy in mixed -- it is what it is.

btw - it's also too simplistic to say that the best teams have the most 4.5 guys. that team in 6th place should by your formula be in the top 3.

the REAL formula for success is the same for all usta leagues - mens, womens, mixed, combo, trilevel, etc. the best teams are the ones who have the most players who are at the very top of their respective rating. as in top level 3.0 or 3.5 or 4.0 or 4.5 players. period.

[cknobman]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Mmmm, I think I have to disagree.

First, let's compare apples to apples. Let's assume we are comparing a high 4.0 guy to a high 4.5 guy. My partner and I are 4.0s.

There is simply a world of difference between the high 4.0 guy and the high 4.5 guy. The 4.5 guy will dominate everything. He will hold his serve at love. He will men*ace us at net so we cannot get to his partner when she serves. Meanwhile, his partner can certainly return my serve, and she will block a few of my partner's serves back.

Bottom line: We stand no chance. In all of the mixed matches I have played, I have never taken a set off of a 4.5M/3.5F pair. Against 4.0/4.0 pairs, I have some hard-fought wins.

Sure, the line between 4.0 and 4.5 guys is arbitrary. But once you let 4.5 guys in, you have to let all of them in -- even the ones who are close to 5.0.

There is really no justification for that.

Cindy, your still focusing on the guy which is not the point.

Of course the 4.0 guy is most likely not ever going to beat out the 4.5 guy but that is beside the point.

Its all about dominating the woman. A 4.5 guy wont have problems with a 4.0 guys serve but a 3.5 woman sure will so the 4.0 guy should still have a really good chance of holding serve. Then it all boils down to who can break the womans serve. It is much easier to break a 3.5 womans serve than a 4.0 (generally speaking).

If the 4.0 man is worth half his salt and a 4.0 woman is decent as well they should not have a lot of trouble returning a 3.5 womans serve out of reach of the 4.5 male at the net.

The times you run into trouble are when you have a 4.0/4.0 combo where the woman is a low 4.0 facing off against a 4.5/3.5 combo where the woman is really a 4.0. In this situation you reach a parity between the women and then the 4.0/4.0 combo is at a disadvantage because the 4.5 male can dominate the 4.0 male.

[tennismonkey]

Originally Posted by cknobman

Cindy, your still focusing on the guy which is not the point.

Of course the 4.0 guy is most likely not ever going to beat out the 4.5 guy but that is beside the point.

Its all about dominating the woman. A 4.5 guy wont have problems with a 4.0 guys serve but a 3.5 woman sure will so the 4.0 guy should still have a really good chance of holding serve. Then it all boils down to who can break the womans serve. It is much easier to break a 3.5 womans serve than a 4.0 (generally speaking).

If the 4.0 man is worth half his salt and a 4.0 woman is decent as well they should not have a lot of trouble returning a 3.5 womans serve out of reach of the 4.5 male at the net.

The times you run into trouble are when you have a 4.0/4.0 combo where the woman is a low 4.0 facing off against a 4.5/3.5 combo where the woman is really a 4.0. In this situation you reach a parity between the women and then the 4.0/4.0 combo is at a disadvantage because the 4.5 male can dominate the 4.0 male.

what he said. +1

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by tennismonkey

cindy -- in an ideal world, i'm not really a fan of a 4.5 guy playing with a 3.5 lady. because it is too large a gap in skill level. and this forces people to play a type of tennis that you don't normally play.

however -- until the USTA decides to have a gender neutral NTRP rating system where a 4.5 guy and a 4.5 woman are equivalent . . . OR a rule that says the woman must be equal or higher rated than the guy in mixed -- it is what it is.

Let me be clear. Despite my hyper-aggressive thread title, I think it is perfectly fine for 4.5 guys to sign up for 8.0 mixed and play as ruthlessly as they can.

My question is whether the rules should be changed to disallow it. How about it, TennisMonkey? If you were running the show, would you change the rules?

btw - it's also too simplistic to say that the best teams have the most 4.5 guys. that team in 6th place should by your formula be in the top 3.

the REAL formula for success is the same for all usta leagues - mens, womens, mixed, combo, trilevel, etc. the best teams are the ones who have the most players who are at the very top of their respective rating. as in top level 3.0 or 3.5 or 4.0 or 4.5 players. period.

Granted. It is not a very accurate measure until we clean it up. Better would be to examine each 4.5/3.5 v. 4.0/4.0 matchup and see if there is a pattern. I would bet there would be.

[damazing]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

How about some actual data?

Here are the numbers of 4.5 guys on each team in our league. I will list them in order of the current team standings so you can see to what extent having 4.5 guys on the roster influences results.

First: 3
Second: 5
Third: 1
Fourth: 2
Fifth: 0
Sixth: 3
Seventh: 1
Eighth: 1
Ninth: 1

If you want to be in the top of the standings, recruit 4.5 guys. If you want to be in the bottom, rely on 4.0s.

By the way, there are 155 players in our 8.0 mixed league. Figure half of these are men, so 77 guys. Seventeen of the guys are 4.5s.

How would you rate their 3.5 partners? Would you say that they are all higher end 3.5 on the cusp of 4.0 players?

[tennismonkey]

as for changing the rules - yeps. i'm all for it. but i'd prefer a gender neutral rating system first. but barring that - a rule that says the lady partner in mixed must be equal or higher rated sounds good to me. should promote better dubs and more equal pairings. i'd sign that petition. well maybe after this 8.0 mixed season i'd sign it.

[Nellie]

The problem with 4.5 is that it is giant spread (since it is the top end of most competitive USTA leagues). I know people who have played a lot and have worked up to 4.5 after 10 years and others who have serious credentials (varsity college /semi-professional players) working down the rankings. Without meaning to insult those working their way up the rankings, the players are, in no way, comparible.

But I agree with your general premise. There is almost no way you (4.0 combo) can hurt the 4.5 with your shots and he is likely in good enough shape to run the whole court.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by cknobman

Its all about dominating the woman. A 4.5 guy wont have problems with a 4.0 guys serve but a 3.5 woman sure will so the 4.0 guy should still have a really good chance of holding serve. Then it all boils down to who can break the womans serve. It is much easier to break a 3.5 womans serve than a 4.0 (generally speaking).

Fascinating discussion.

I would agree that what you are saying is the conventional wisdom -- it's all about how the woman plays and whether she holds. I am starting to feel differently about it.

Take my match the other night (four 4.0s on the court). We won, 7-5, 6-4.

Why, though? Why did we win that match? Remember, our opponents were a recent 4.5 move-down and a 4.0 woman who does way better in 8.0 mixed than I do. They should have crushed us, or more accurately, me.

The difference wasn't the ladies. The difference was the guys. More specifically, the difference IMHO was how the two guys played the net.

Neither guy S&V. My partner, however, is a poaching *beast.* (This, you should know, is exactly why I thought he would be a good partner for me.) If I put a serve into the box, he considers it his job to crush a poach, often so ferociously that it goes over the back curtain and into the hallway behind the court. My female opponent could not get the ball by him.

I, on the other hand, could get my return past the opposing male consistently when the woman served. Is this because I have a killer return? No. I just tried to stand in as close as I dared and hit my FH crosscourt -- I only took one return up the line the entire night. I just think our opponents played a more conservative net style that didn't involve active poaching.

So. One could conclude that I was simply a better returner than my female opponent. I disagree with that conclusion -- like I said, she wins more.

I think the difference in the match was how the guys played.

So. If we substitute a 4.5 guy into the picture, I would expect his net play to be strong enough to dominate the net when his partner is serving so that she can hold.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by damazing

How would you rate their 3.5 partners? Would you say that they are all higher end 3.5 on the cusp of 4.0 players?

I'd have to do some analysis to figure that out, of course.

In general, however, the top teams take only the very strongest 3.5 women. These are the women that everyone scratches their heads about because no one can understand why on earth they remain 3.5s when all of their peers have been bumped up.

If I were bumped down to 3.5, I can promise you that my phone would ring off the hook with offers to play 8.0 mixed with a 4.5 teaching pro at my side.

[cknobman]

Cindy I agree with you about how the male plays the net.

A lot does ride on how well the male can cover and poach when at the net.

But I still believe that any pair of 4.0's that are average or above average would return the 3.5 females serve well enough to mitigate the opposing teams male trying to poach the net.

A 3.5 serve is usually slow enough and lacks enough spin that its fairly easy to A. Lob a crosscourt shot deep pinning the 3.5 server in the back court or B. if the male is poaching too much hit one down the line to keep him honest. Then once you keep the male honest and he cant poach 1/2 to 3/4 across the net then its easy to blast returns at the 3.5 female who usually has zero chance of getting solid contact on it.

[spot]

Originally Posted by cknobman

But I still believe that any pair of 4.0's that are average or above average would return the 3.5 females serve well enough to mitigate the opposing teams male trying to poach the net.

I am too lazy to go look but I recall when people looked at the teams that made nationals they were overwhelming using 4.5 guy/3.5 girl combinations.

[omega4]

Originally Posted by spot

omega- what part of town do you live in and what level do you play?

Hi spot,
I live between Buckhead and Brookhaven in the north part of Atlanta but inside the I-285 Perimeter.

I used to play competitive high school tennis at a 4.0 but that was over 20 years ago. I'm just beginning to get back into tennis now after finding out how big the adult tennis scene is here in Atlanta.

I honestly think I'm a 2.5 - 3.0 at the moment (everything is rusty except for volleying and poaching) but believe I can get up to a 3.0-3.5 after a month or two or three of rallying and playing sets.

I just got a new Yonex VCore 100S to replace my Head Trisys 260 (Austria) racquet. Racquets have come a long way in 20 years....

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by cknobman

But I still believe that any pair of 4.0's that are average or above average would return the 3.5 females serve well enough to mitigate the opposing teams male trying to poach the net.

A 3.5 serve is usually slow enough and lacks enough spin that its fairly easy to A. Lob a crosscourt shot deep pinning the 3.5 server in the back court or B. if the male is poaching too much hit one down the line to keep him honest. Then once you keep the male honest and he cant poach 1/2 to 3/4 across the net then its easy to blast returns at the 3.5 female who usually has zero chance of getting solid contact on it.

Honestly, this has not been my experience.

You would be shocked -- shocked, I tell you -- at how often a 4.0 guy will botch a return of the 3.5 woman's serve. It is less pace than they are used to, bounces lower. Not to mention the enormous surge of testosterone the 4.0 guy must battle the instant that serve hits the box.

If the 3.5 woman puts that serve to the T all night, a 4.5 guy should be able to feast on the returns all night.

And remember . . . some of the 3.5 women (who are really 4.0s in 3.5 clothing) have pretty good serves. In other words, they are capable of directional control and some have good enough mechanics that their serves aren't necessarily sitters. Add in that they are used to absorbing pace and getting 1 or 2 balls back and you have plenty of opportunity for the 4.5 to dominate.

IME (and speaking to some extent of the 3.5 women on TennisMonkey's team) where the 3.5 women are most vulnerable is with their net play. Alas, 4.0 guys are reluctant to hit at them when they are at net, and it isn't easy to send a solid shot to the woman when you have to do it off of the 4.5's serve or groundies.