Guideline for Sandbaggers

[asimple]

Originally Posted by chatt_town

You talking about my team bro?

Of course not, I am talking about another team of self rated players who are winning matches easily.

[Buford T Justice]

All of this "secret rating" stuff is what turns alot of people off to USTA, IMO.

Why not make the "rules" transparent?

There are always going to be guys who try and cheat the system. You might as well define the rules clearly and obviously.

A good example of a system that I think many folks think "works" is Ultimate Tennis (formerly known as "KSwiss").

A few cut and pastes from their rulebook------

Rating Calculation

Only matches that you complete in full against your assigned opponents count towards your player rating. Defaults, incomplete matches, retirements and averages do not represent your abilities and are removed from the rating calculation. Additionally, matches played against subs are removed because players can select their own subs and subs are not motivated to play as hard as if the match counted for them. The end result is a rating that shows a statistically pure picture of how competitive you are at your current skill level.

To calculate your rating - Find the difference in the league points earned between you and your opponent for each valid match. Sum the point difference and divide by the total number of valid matches. This is the number you see in the rating column on your standings page. During the season you will notice your rating will change after each match, and will not be finalized until the end of the season.

Sample Rating Calculation
Note: Week 3 is not factored into the rating due to a sub being used.




WK 1

WK 2

WK 3

WK 4

WK 5

WK 6

WK 7




Your Points


14

12

8P

4

14

12

12





Opponents Points


6

8

12S

14

8

7

8





Point Difference (rating)


+8

+4

N/A

-10

+6

+5

+4




17 is the total difference in points. 17 points divided by 6 valid matches equals a +2.8 end of season rating.

Scoring System

Our unique point system creates a playoff atmosphere all season long. Matches are more exciting, competitive and meaningful because every game counts.

You earn points based on the set scores of your matches. This encourages you to fight hard for every game and rewards you for close losses. Best of all, in the true spirit of tennis, no matter how far down you are you can always come back! Each season this creates exciting playoff point races that go down to the wire.

Our point system also dramatically improves the quality of your competition. You'll find our players will be competing at their appropriate level. Because our system measures the degree or strength of each win, skill levels can be adjusted with a far greater degree of accuracy. This produces a consistent level of competition which is the hallmark of Ultimate Tennis.

Point Calculations:
The winner receives: • 12 points for a 3 set win
• 14 points for a 2 set win
The loser receives:
One point for each game won in their two highest scoring sets. A player can receive up to a maximum of 8 points per match.

Example match score 6-4, 6-2
• winner receives 14 points
• loser receives 6 points

Example match score 6-2, 4-6, 7-5
• winner receives 12 points
• loser receives 8 points

Regular Season
Move Up Requirements •If your rating is -5.4 to +5.4 you remain at your current level.
•If your rating is +5.5 to +9.9 you move up 1 level.
•If your rating is +10.0 or greater you move up 2 levels.
Move Down Requirements•If your rating is -5.5 to -9.9 you move down 1 level.
•If your rating is -10.0 or lower you move down 2 levels.
Move Down Exceptions•If you moved up to a new skill level in your last season of play and finished with a -5.5 rating or lower, you will remain at your current skill level. This rule is designed to allow your game to to adjust to the higher level of play.
•If you finished the season with a -5.5 rating or lower, but in the season prior earned a rating of -4.0 or higher, you will remain at your current level for one more season.


Playoff Move Up Requirements

If you advance to the following playoff rounds you will be moved up to the next highest skill level regardless of your end of season rating.
•Draw of 2 - champion moves up
•Draw of 4 - champion moves up
•Draw of 8 - champion moves up
•Draw of 16 - finalist and champion move up
•Draw of 32 - finalist and champion move up
•Draw of 64 - semi-finalist, finalist and champion move up
•Draw of 128 - semi-finalist, finalist and champion move up

[spot]

If Ultimate tennis had "nationals" then people would spend a whole lot more time regulating their rating in the regular season.

[Buford T Justice]

The other good thing about this league setup is that there are sub categories within each level, especially in the "middle" levels (where a good number of players play, but where there can be significant differences). Specifically, there is not just a 3.5 level, there is a 3.5 and a 3.5-, a 4.0 and 4.0-, a 4.5 and a 4.5-, and a 6.0 and a 6.0- (there can be a big difference between the 6.0 and 6.0- as 6.0 is open so there are some former pros, Div I college, etc that can hang out there). The other levels (2.5, 3.0, 5.0, 5.5) do not have the - levels.

[Buford T Justice]

Originally Posted by spot

If Ultimate tennis had "nationals" then people would spend a whole lot more time regulating their rating in the regular season.

True enough.

Make the "stakes" high enough and there is almost an automatic increase in the "gaming"!

[asimple]

I like Ultimate a lot, but unfortunately their rating method is actually flawed a bit and leads to bias in players ratings increasing. I am actually involved in a discussion right now as many players in my ultimate area have been moved past the highest level where people actually play. The people here are just mid level 4.5 guys that slowly but surely have been moved to the next higher level each round where no one plays.

[spot]

Originally Posted by asimple

I like Ultimate a lot, but unfortunately their rating method is actually flawed a bit and leads to bias in players ratings increasing. I am actually involved in a discussion right now as many players in my ultimate area have been moved past the highest level where people actually play. The people here are just mid level 4.5 guys that slowly but surely have been moved to the next higher level each round where no one plays.

If lots of people are being moved to the higher levels doesn't that work itself out?

Where do you live? In Atlanta there were 45 players at the highest level so it doesn't seem to be an issue here.

[asimple]

I'm in Northern California.

The highest rating is 5.5 which nobody plays in because they can't get a large enough interest level. I believe there is actual interest but people for some reason just don't sign up. This is why a group of us are actually organizing our own simple round robin league.

[spot]

Yeah- Atlanta has a 6.0- and a 6.0 level past that which makes it easier. I'm pretty surprised they would do that... I thought that any league would simply cap it at the highest level that was still functional. They do a lot of stuff right so I'm surprised they are messing that up.

[asimple]

I'm actually surprised as well. Ultimate was by far my favorite league to play in. There were never large draws like 45 people, but when I started about 3 years ago there was about 30 in the 5.0 division. I believed their forced promotion for the finalist and runner up is what has caused the issue over time.

The first season I played the players were mostly strong 4.0s to mid level 4.5s in this division with most players at the low 4.5 level. It has now degraded to the mean at about the mid 4.0 level due to people being bumped up. I have also improved which has made this a bigger issue to the point that I wouldn't have played if I hadn't gotten bumped up.

[chatt_town]

Outside the fact that there is no singles. I like the way Alta does it. It's real simple. You move with your team and be done with it. None of this calculating you beat this person on this day and didn't beat this one on that day nonesense.

Originally Posted by spot

Yeah- Atlanta has a 6.0- and a 6.0 level past that which makes it easier. I'm pretty surprised they would do that... I thought that any league would simply cap it at the highest level that was still functional. They do a lot of stuff right so I'm surprised they are messing that up.

[Buford T Justice]

Originally Posted by asimple

I'm in Northern California.

The highest rating is 5.5 which nobody plays in because they can't get a large enough interest level. I believe there is actual interest but people for some reason just don't sign up. This is why a group of us are actually organizing our own simple round robin league.

Dang...I am at 5.5 in Ultimate tennis in my area and the guys in the top level here (6.0...open) would kick my @ss in a hurry. I played one guy who was a mid/low 6.0 in UT, played the best dang set in my life (literally) and was able to win 3 games. That was only because I came up to the net and surprised him a few games after he was blasting me all to h#$@ with his groundstrokes (which it was obvious I was no match for). If we had to play a second set, Id probably have vomited (my effort level in the first set was that high....LOL) and hed have adjusted his game and blown me off the court.

Without those 6.0- and 6.0 levels, I do agree that the league might breakdown a little bit. What would seem logical to happen was that, as there are obviously players in NorCal higher in talent than Ultimate Tennis 5.5, that the lower levels would start to get stacked with talent.

In reality, this might actually bring the UT rankings closer to NTRP. IMHO, the UT levels, although numerically identical in structure to NTRPs, are not equivalent in many cases, especially up towards the higher levels (the 3.5-4.0 range seems to match with NTRP decently). There is no way in h#@$ I am a USTA NTRP 5.5 , and I doubt most (all?) of the guys in the UT league at that level are either. A NTRP 5.5 would, I would think, be more or less playing open, which would be 6.0 in UT.

[chatt_town]

gotcha...cause we are hardly winning anything easy...lol we are winning but it's been nail biting...lol

Originally Posted by asimple

Of course not, I am talking about another team of self rated players who are winning matches easily.

[beernutz]

Originally Posted by chatt_town

Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that you can get a strike by beating a bench mark player if your rating itself is computer generated. * Their own computer has basically said you belong at said level for that year. It would be rediculous to have you paying fees to play say 4.0 and then when you start 3 matches in they say...wait...hold up...you are now 4.5. That would make no sense and I could see them catching hell for doing something like that. The only people I've ever really known to get dq'ed were self rated players. I've never heard of a computer rated player being dq'ed...not for play anyway. ** I can see you getting thrown out for calling the offical a mfker or something.lol

*Computer-rated and Benchmarked players do not get strikes, only self-rated players get strikes as I understand the system.

**Again, I believe that is because the only players who can be DQ'ed are self-rated players. I believe even if a computer-rated player was found to have dishonestly estimated his self-rating, once he or she has received a year-end computer-rating they can no long accumulate strikes and get DQed.

***I don't see where someone has responded to this but my understanding was that strikes were generated by winning individual sets with non-competitive scores (e.g. 6-0 or possibly 6-1) over computer-rated players. If this isn't the case, I wish someone who knows would enlighten me.

[jmnk]

Originally Posted by chatt_town

Outside the fact that there is no singles. I like the way Alta does it. It's real simple. You move with your team and be done with it. None of this calculating you beat this person on this day and didn't beat this one on that day nonesense.

if you really think that 'moving up/down' a player based solely on how good/bad the team he is on is doing is in any way, shape or form better than USTA ranking than obviously your idea of what constitutes a 'fair ranking' escapes me. could you kindly explain how is that better? As in -
a) how does it more accurately describes a level of an individual player, and
b) how does it better evaluates players so matches between same-level players are at least somewhat competitive?

[jmnk]

Originally Posted by Buford T Justice

All of this "secret rating" stuff is what turns alot of people off to USTA, IMO.

Why not make the "rules" transparent?

There are always going to be guys who try and cheat the system. You might as well define the rules clearly and obviously.

A good example of a system that I think many folks think "works" is Ultimate Tennis (formerly known as "KSwiss").

A few cut and pastes from their rulebook------

Rating Calculation

Only matches that you complete in full against your assigned opponents count towards your player rating. Defaults, incomplete matches, retirements and averages do not represent your abilities and are removed from the rating calculation. Additionally, matches played against subs are removed because players can select their own subs and subs are not motivated to play as hard as if the match counted for them. The end result is a rating that shows a statistically pure picture of how competitive you are at your current skill level.

To calculate your rating - Find the difference in the league points earned between you and your opponent for each valid match. Sum the point difference and divide by the total number of valid matches. This is the number you see in the rating column on your standings page. During the season you will notice your rating will change after each match, and will not be finalized until the end of the season.

Sample Rating Calculation
Note: Week 3 is not factored into the rating due to a sub being used.




WK 1

WK 2

WK 3

WK 4

WK 5

WK 6

WK 7




Your Points


14

12

8P

4

14

12

12





Opponents Points


6

8

12S

14

8

7

8





Point Difference (rating)


+8

+4

N/A

-10

+6

+5

+4




17 is the total difference in points. 17 points divided by 6 valid matches equals a +2.8 end of season rating.

Scoring System

Our unique point system creates a playoff atmosphere all season long. Matches are more exciting, competitive and meaningful because every game counts.

You earn points based on the set scores of your matches. This encourages you to fight hard for every game and rewards you for close losses. Best of all, in the true spirit of tennis, no matter how far down you are you can always come back! Each season this creates exciting playoff point races that go down to the wire.

Our point system also dramatically improves the quality of your competition. You'll find our players will be competing at their appropriate level. Because our system measures the degree or strength of each win, skill levels can be adjusted with a far greater degree of accuracy. This produces a consistent level of competition which is the hallmark of Ultimate Tennis.

Point Calculations:
The winner receives: • 12 points for a 3 set win
• 14 points for a 2 set win
The loser receives:
One point for each game won in their two highest scoring sets. A player can receive up to a maximum of 8 points per match.

Example match score 6-4, 6-2
• winner receives 14 points
• loser receives 6 points

Example match score 6-2, 4-6, 7-5
• winner receives 12 points
• loser receives 8 points

Regular Season
Move Up Requirements •If your rating is -5.4 to +5.4 you remain at your current level.
•If your rating is +5.5 to +9.9 you move up 1 level.
•If your rating is +10.0 or greater you move up 2 levels.
Move Down Requirements•If your rating is -5.5 to -9.9 you move down 1 level.
•If your rating is -10.0 or lower you move down 2 levels.
Move Down Exceptions•If you moved up to a new skill level in your last season of play and finished with a -5.5 rating or lower, you will remain at your current skill level. This rule is designed to allow your game to to adjust to the higher level of play.
•If you finished the season with a -5.5 rating or lower, but in the season prior earned a rating of -4.0 or higher, you will remain at your current level for one more season.


Playoff Move Up Requirements

If you advance to the following playoff rounds you will be moved up to the next highest skill level regardless of your end of season rating.
•Draw of 2 - champion moves up
•Draw of 4 - champion moves up
•Draw of 8 - champion moves up
•Draw of 16 - finalist and champion move up
•Draw of 32 - finalist and champion move up
•Draw of 64 - semi-finalist, finalist and champion move up
•Draw of 128 - semi-finalist, finalist and champion move up

ok, and that method somehow prevents 'gaming the system' how exactly?

[Buford T Justice]

Originally Posted by jmnk

ok, and that method somehow prevents 'gaming the system' how exactly?

It doesnt prevent gaming at all. It just makes everything transparent. There are no "secret rules", etc. Its very easy to understand what one has to do to move up/down, etc.

If someone really really wants to game the system, as mentioned above, there isnt much that can be done about it. At least with a transparent system, everyone knows how to cheat equally! LOL

[spot]

Originally Posted by jmnk

if you really think that 'moving up/down' a player based solely on how good/bad the team he is on is doing is in any way, shape or form better than USTA ranking than obviously your idea of what constitutes a 'fair ranking' escapes me. could you kindly explain how is that better? As in -
a) how does it more accurately describes a level of an individual player, and
b) how does it better evaluates players so matches between same-level players are at least somewhat competitive?

ALTA does a lousy job of rating individuals. THis is my single biggest issue with ALTA- a person who wins at line 1 is treated the same as someone from the same team who loses badly at line 5. (And in ALTA there is a rule that you do not play weaker lines over stronger lines)

That said- I STRONGLY prefer ALTA's way of forming a team. You can create at team from any 12 (or more) people you want and they place a team based on the 10 highest rated players. This makes team formation greatly easier. You can have players who once played in college playing on the same team with guys who started playing a few months ago. The team getting moved up in ALTA is natural and it comes out of team success so it is very tough to manipulate.

Compare that to the problem of getting bumped up in USTA. Either you have to move the entire team up to a level many do not belong at or else you need to leave the team and find a new group of players.

My ideal would be that they use ALTA's method of team formation but have more levels of team so that getting bumped an extra level wouldn't matter. But still have an individual rating and if a self rated player got DQ'd they would be ineligible for playoffs. But since 1 person's rating would only count as 10% of the team's rating there would be VERY little reason to underrate.

[jmnk]

Originally Posted by Buford T Justice

It doesnt prevent gaming at all. It just makes everything transparent. There are no "secret rules", etc. Its very easy to understand what one has to do to move up/down, etc.

If someone really really wants to game the system, as mentioned above, there isnt much that can be done about it. At least with a transparent system, everyone knows how to cheat equally! LOL

USTA is pretty transparent as well. 98% of complains here is about 'people on other teams are gaming the system (i.e rated too low)' and 'a player on my team was rightly self-rated but got disqualified'.

Which is truly amazing. How is that so hard to arrange a match with a computer rated player, ask him to play as best as he can, buy him a six-packs for his time/effort and the second one if he wins, and at the and of two our exercise you will have a pretty accurate idea of your level. There's really no more/less to it. Folks spent much more time trying to fit one's skills into USTA guidelines while playing a single match would solve your self-rating issue.

[dizzlmcwizzl]

Originally Posted by spot

chatt_town and schmke- I believe that you guys are incorrect on what constitutes a strike. How I understand it is that you generate a strike if your rating at the end of the match is outside of the permissible range. So by playing more matches your rating has more "weight" and it is harder for one outlying result to generate a strike for you. This is also part of the reason it is possible to generate a strike even with a loss.

No one here really knows ...and I have not read through the next 30 posts so maybe this has been hashed out already.

But my understanding was that when your dynamic rating exceeded a threshold you earned a strike. So by getting your dynamic rating down at the starts helps you at the end.

I have seen e-mails to DQ'd folks where their third strike is actually not an impressive performance yet they still get DQ'd. Presumably this is because they are still over the threshold even though that individual match in an of itself would not have earned a strike..