Do most of you swing HARD?

[psv255]

Originally Posted by user92626

You mean you can hit at 2.5/3 but you won't? Or your strokes will break down at anything over 2/3?
If it's the latter than you have no choice. 2/3 in effect is your full strength. LOL.

I disagree. There is a certain level called "100%" that essentially means consciously making a decision to go for a very low-percentage shot, mustering all of your energy and transferring it into the ball (into spin, speed, what have you).

While your success rate might be minimal, that is still your highest level of shot. When you max out a flat serve at 120 with 1/10 success, that is still your personal best speed-wise, i.e. 100 percent. It is not a measure of the effort that you put in when victorious, but what you are capable of.

To use your scale, any tennis player trying to hit at 3/3 will either shank, net, or hit the fence on the fly most of the time, yourself and myself included.

[Fuji]

Originally Posted by psv255

I disagree. There is a certain level called "100%" that essentially means consciously making a decision to go for a very low-percentage shot, mustering all of your energy and transferring it into the ball (into spin, speed, what have you).

While your success rate might be minimal, that is still your highest level of shot. When you max out a flat serve at 120 with 1/10 success, that is still your personal best speed-wise, i.e. 100 percent. It is not a measure of the effort that you put in when victorious, but what you are capable of.

To use your scale, any tennis player trying to hit at 3/3 will either shank, net, or hit the fence on the fly most of the time, yourself and myself included.

Good post!

-Fuji

[user92626]

Let's simplify. Watch atp pros, do you think they hit at their best strength generally through out their match? To me, they do. But for some reason rec players start to give them % like pros only hit 70%, etc.

I only dial down when I'm not confident or when I'm against much lower players, ie just play enough to win, but that's not what we're talking about. That's not true competition or how a match is intended to be played.

[psv255]

Originally Posted by user92626

Let's simplify. Watch atp pros, do you think they hit at their best strength generally through out their match? To me, they do. But for some reason rec players start to give them % like pros only hit 70%, etc.

Do you really believe that the pros hit their shots with their full effort every single time? This is what you were saying in a previous post. Pros, just like anyone else who wishes to improve, practice much more intensely than they play matches in order to reach a new peak in skills. Then, they scale their match-play effort back to a practical risk-reward outcome. It still seems like they are giving it their all, and they are, but they don't throw themselves into every shot. Most of the time they are probing with their shots, going for accuracy over sheer weight of shot. Only when they feel confident enough will they unload (and unload is 90% max) on a shot.

Caveat: Best effort =/= maximum RHS

Here's the logic: If you are hitting low-percentage shots, and putting everything into each shot throughout the course of a match, and doing so successfully:
1. You're a master of fitness, mental fortitude, have perfectly sound technique, and impeccable movement; teach us your ways!
2. It's not 100% of what you're capable.

Look at the title of this thread.
Match-play situations call for tactics, which isn't quite what the OP was asking about.

[Fintft]

Originally Posted by Fuji

Good question!

it becomes a matter of how much I'm looking to push my opponent back and go on offence, vs how much I am looking to play more defence. So in short: Yes I do hold back my ground strokes to an acceptable level of "risk."
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My court coverage is pretty darn solid, so speed of my opponent doesn't really come into play either. If my opponent is a "Fast" mover, it just means some good rallies will ensue which I really enjoy.
-Fuji

That makes sense for a 4.5 For most of us (and I'm speaking for myself here, b/c I think I'm bellow 4.0), since our opponents don't move as well, the range of choices is even wider: i.e. I can just place my shots, don't need to blast them/push the opponents back...Or if I want to take average risks, I can just send some hard balls down the middle of the court (without aiming for the lines). And although that's something I've seen recommended even at pro level, it works best against opponents 4 and bellow.

On the other hand since I'm not moving well myself, I better take the initiative first, so power is tempting. My conclusion so far has been to improve my technique (better swings, faster head speed), aiming in general for effortless power. And some variety.

[Fintft]

Originally Posted by user92626

I only dial down when I'm not confident or when I'm against much lower players, ie just play enough to win, but that's not what we're talking about. That's not true competition or how a match is intended to be played.

Ah, then you are playing like a ...tiger; to quote a chess book, that says that against weaker opponents you should play solid, while you want to make it random against stronger opponents.

I also agree to your last sentence and I usually treat club matches as practice for my shots and try to play tennis as to how "is supposed to be played"; a long term strategy if you want. I'm a purist if you want, I want to improve my technique first and only second worry about short term results.

[user92626]

Originally Posted by psv255

Here's the logic: If you are hitting low-percentage shots, and putting everything into each shot throughout the course of a match, and doing so successfully:
1. You're a master of fitness, mental fortitude, have perfectly sound technique, and impeccable movement; teach us your ways!
2. It's not 100% of what you're capable.

Look at the title of this thread.
Match-play situations call for tactics, which isn't quite what the OP was asking about.

Frankly I no longer sure what we're arguing about My point is, with all things equal, for a shot that you can swing all out to take advantage of pace and topspin and put pressure on opponent, why would you swing only at 70%?

Now to suit your argument you introduce "low percentage" stuff or unique situation. Well, threading needle situations require finesse. So strength and swinging hard is meaningless. Like volleying or dropshot!

[psv255]

Originally Posted by user92626

Frankly I no longer sure what we're arguing about My point is, with all things equal, for a shot that you can swing all out to take advantage of pace and topspin and put pressure on opponent, why would you swing only at 70%?

Now to suit your argument you introduce "low percentage" stuff or unique situation. Well, threading needle situations require finesse. So strength and swinging hard is meaningless. Like volleying or dropshot!

Yeah, I feel like we're defining and arguing slightly different issues. Apologies for any confusion!

I just wanted to know what your perception of "swinging all out" is; mine, for the purpose of his discussion, is the max. amount of racquet head speed you can generate (which can translate into a combo of pace & spin).

I know that if I try to hit w/ 100% of my max RHS, I'll miss way too much to beat my opponent, especially one at or above my level. So I go with 70%...

I'd definitely hit all-out with an effort I can consistently control ("take advantage of"), which isn't necessarily the effort that gets me to 100% RHS.

Hope that clears up my way of seeing this
I hope this isn't going in circles.

[user92626]

psv,

Well, I read the OP asking if you swing full out or casually, and my take is that I tend to play almost every shot like I try to win with it. That's my idea of worthwhile, fun tennis (and obviously losing is never fun for me, so no hitting the fence).

I think this argument gets confusing cuz we all have different ideas of swinging "full out" or try to split hair with the concept. OP certainly didn't define what he meant by "full out". Or maybe he meant just that!

In my experience fluctuating your hitting power seems to do more harm than good. I play my best when I hit with one consistent, strong power. It actually simplifies alot by letting me focus on other things.

[psv255]

Originally Posted by user92626

psv,

Well, I read the OP asking if you swing full out or casually, and my take is that I tend to play almost every shot like I try to win with it. That's my idea of worthwhile, fun tennis (and obviously losing is never fun for me, so no hitting the fence).
[...]
In my experience fluctuating your hitting power seems to do more harm than good. I play my best when I hit with one consistent, strong power. It actually simplifies alot by letting me focus on other things.

Sounds good! I try to do the same.
But I end up hitting the fence way too often

[KineticChain]

Its not always about swing speed. swing slowly but maximize your weight transfer from legs, torso, shoulders, wrist lag, to the ball. Guaranteed to hit a heavier, pacier ball than most rec players if you do it right. Once you get comfortable with the efficient weight transfer, slowly add more swing speed to it.

[Ryoma]

You are swinging too hard only if you hit it out or into the net.

[Fintft]

Originally Posted by user92626

psv,

Well, I read the OP asking if you swing full out or casually, and my take is that I tend to play almost every shot like I try to win with it. That's my idea of worthwhile, fun tennis (and obviously losing is never fun for me, so no hitting the fence).

I think this argument gets confusing cuz we all have different ideas of swinging "full out" or try to split hair with the concept. OP certainly didn't define what he meant by "full out". Or maybe he meant just that!

In my experience fluctuating your hitting power seems to do more harm than good. I play my best when I hit with one consistent, strong power. It actually simplifies alot by letting me focus on other things.

I agree with this 99%, also b/c:

1. It seems that this way we are getting closer to hit the balls as the pros do (racquet head speed etc).

2. Most of my opponents and partners, at club level, can't do it and that gives me ( a heavy guy and slow mover aka poor defender) the initiative and probably best option.

But I also try to:

3. Have some variety.

4. Play like a tiger, i.e. solid against weaker players/defenders (i.e. against them it's enough to just place the ball and move them around) and mainly random against higher rated players (something from a chess book).

Cheers!

[user92626]

Originally Posted by psv255

Sounds good! I try to do the same.
But I end up hitting the fence way too often

Actually, consistency of any kind is a great start. If you already have that kind of "hit the fence" power, keep the same confidence/feel and just adjust amount of topspin and net clearance. Many players tend to "shrink" as a rally gets longer or at a critical point. I'm learning to do what I call "decisive strokes" and if I need to increase "percentage" at critical points I do it with placement (well inside the lines) and more topspin as opposed to swinging ...less or 70%.

Fintft,

I'm actually against "variety" in term of power and strokes You're messing yourself up by introducing too many unfamiliar elements.

Yes, if you watch Djokovic play, you'll see he clearly has rhs on every shot, especially on defensive, on the run shots. Youtube has some clips of Berdych playing close-up, he plays like he's high on caffeine

[Fintft]

Originally Posted by user92626

Actually, consistency of any kind is a great start. If you already have that kind of "hit the fence" power, keep the same confidence/feel and just adjust amount of topspin and net clearance. Many players tend to "shrink" as a rally gets longer or at a critical point. I'm learning to do what I call "decisive strokes" and if I need to increase "percentage" at critical points I do it with placement (well inside the lines) and more topspin as opposed to swinging ...less or 70%.

Fintft,

I'm actually against "variety" in term of power and strokes You're messing yourself up by introducing too many unfamiliar elements.

Yes, if you watch Djokovic play, you'll see he clearly has rhs on every shot, especially on defensive, on the run shots. Youtube has some clips of Berdych playing close-up, he plays like he's high on caffeine

Myself, if I want to place my shots, I better tune it down a bit, unless I'm really in a zone.

Also what's wrong with a drop shot now and then? Even Federer started to like the idea...

[user92626]

Even Federer started to like the idea...

Maybe it was fun for him or some sort of obsession, but it surely wasn't successful ...

Hey since you mentioned chess, you could see tennis as chess and use chess concepts also. Play with a purpose and arrive at the configurations that favor you. Train yourself to recognize and implement as many configurations as possible.

[Relinquis]

the occasional drop shot, once every game or two, keeps baseliners unsettled.

[Fintft]

Originally Posted by user92626

Maybe it was fun for him or some sort of obsession, but it surely wasn't successful ...

Hey since you mentioned chess, you could see tennis as chess and use chess concepts also. Play with a purpose and arrive at the configurations that favor you. Train yourself to recognize and implement as many configurations as possible.

Thank you for the very thoughtful reply!

Visualization is a technique used mostly in end games in chess (as the position you want to arrive to), while on the other hand Scientific American has done a whole study of how human intelligence works, using chess as an example and they've arrived (if I'm not mistaken) at the conclusion that pattern recognition is used a lot by Grand Masters (and that sets them apart from regular masters).

[Fintft]

Originally Posted by Relinquis

the occasional drop shot, once every game or two, keeps baseliners unsettled.

True, although like user92626 said, it messes yourself up a bit, by introducing a variable into your own shots (although I think that ultimately you'd be a better player once you master that).

[Mike2228]

I swing hard when it makes sense.