Moonballers are out - Short, Low pushers are in...

[10isfreak]

Originally Posted by dman72

I'm sure it's exacerbated by playing on synthetic grass.

I lost to one of these guys last night in my club match. I begrudge him nothing, he was simply a better player then me last night. In our last encounter, he bowed out after losing the 2nd set due to a calf injury. I felt firmly in control of that one after finally getting my forehand groved and my first serve was going in.

But last night, he was so adept at getting the ball low to my backhand, that I could just never get my inside out forehand grooving. So, even when I managed to run around the shot, I was making way too many errors on my forehand because I felt pressured to do damage on that side.

The entire night, he simply hit low slice to my backhand, and charged the net. My lobs and passing shots just weren't working on my backhand. If it was warm out, I'd be taking my ball machine out at 5am and drilling those low shots for an hour straight.

That's tennis.

That's the right attitude.

People often identify their strategy as lacking when facing pushers. But seeing amateurs drill at the baseline, you often get the hint that they've got very average in-court game. Hitting lows balls, bending the knees and moving forward are things they rarely do and, as such, they also rarely pull them off correctly.

However, you'd do something different: facing the problem, head first. By sweating to adapt your strokes to different situations, you make yourself a better player. An important side-effect of this is that your standard, ideal position, stroke will be improved indirectly because you've bother practicing hitting those pesky low balls or those super-high loopers... in the end, your movement is more precise and you can hit more reliably under all circumstances.

Grooving identical strokes in identical situations is the best way to live the developmental roller-coaster: going from good to bad to good to bad. As you practice something, you lean it; as you keep practicing what you learnt, you perfect it; as you still do the same exercise, you experience a degradation of your skills; and, finally, you get back near to where you started and you have to climb back.

To avoid that, you just need to make sure practice is always hard: as you get better, ask more of yourself and, as I see, you already do it and that's a good sign.

[tennisdad65]

If the guy can hit the ball low to you consistently, he is likely far more skillful than you will ever become. Fed does the low and short all the time, especially against the tall guys.

[dman72]

Originally Posted by 10isfreak

That's the right attitude.

People often identify their strategy as lacking when facing pushers. But seeing amateurs drill at the baseline, you often get the hint that they've got very average in-court game. Hitting lows balls, bending the knees and moving forward are things they rarely do and, as such, they also rarely pull them off correctly.

However, you'd do something different: facing the problem, head first. By sweating to adapt your strokes to different situations, you make yourself a better player. An important side-effect of this is that your standard, ideal position, stroke will be improved indirectly because you've bother practicing hitting those pesky low balls or those super-high loopers... in the end, your movement is more precise and you can hit more reliably under all circumstances.

Grooving identical strokes in identical situations is the best way to live the developmental roller-coaster: going from good to bad to good to bad. As you practice something, you lean it; as you keep practicing what you learnt, you perfect it; as you still do the same exercise, you experience a degradation of your skills; and, finally, you get back near to where you started and you have to climb back.

To avoid that, you just need to make sure practice is always hard: as you get better, ask more of yourself and, as I see, you already do it and that's a good sign.

That's a great point.

Going back a few years I went through a similar situation with another guy I was hitting with on weekends. He was frustrating me to no end with the low slice to backhand junk. I took out the ball machine, worked on low backhands for a few hundred balls, and beat him soundly two times afterwards..now he doesn't call me to play.

But then, since you no longer aren't playing that type of player, you tend to lose what you've learned, so now I feel like like I'm almost back to square 1 with this new guy. He's probably the guy standing in my way from winning the league..I just hope I get a chance to play him again and redeem myself. Most of the guys in my league hit flat and hard.

The worst thing you can do is dismiss the guys game..because there are many more of him down the line, best learn how to counter that kind of game now.

I know the main thing I was doing wrong last night...looking up before completing my shot. You can't worry about where he is, you have to pick a stroke and a spot on the court and just hit it...I found myself jerking my head up to look at him at the net. Terrible habit.

[North]

Lots of advice on things to do strategically. If you can't beat junkballers, just play them even more, trying out different strategies/play patterns until you can beat them.

The first player we all hate playing at lower levels is the classic pusher.The only way past them into higher levels of play is right through them, by playing them a lot till you can beat them handily. The next challenge are the really good junkballers. Same thing, though. Seek them out, play them a lot till you find ways to just dismiss them and move on.

If it ticks you off (or is even just mildly annoying) to have to play people like this, just think of them as tools available for you to become a better player.

[Moz]

OP: You don't stand a chance because it's 2 v 1. You versus the opponent and your bad attitude.

Sort that out and if you're better you'll win, if you're worse you'll still lose but you'll be clearer about what you have to work on.

At the moment you don't really have a clue because your attitude prevents clarity.

[Dimcorner]

I think attitude change is the biggest thing. The way I think of it is that if he beat me somehow then he is better at something than I am. It is my job (if I want to get better) to find out what it is and work on it. Either that or find a way to minimize my weakness and exploit his.

I would never say that they are so bad they beat me. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Also if I do see someone that starts to loose his composure (and can't feed off of the emotion) then I will DEFINITELY feed them garbage all day as long as I win more points than he does in a match.

[Relinquis]

try half volleying the slice to your backhand or taking it on the rise if you can (it seems like you can't though). if that doesn't work, use a deep slice and approach behind it.

[luvforty]

being frank here -

OP's thinking is a fallacy - you can NOT bypass junkballers and hope to compete in a higher level.

because the higher level players all can do junk balls, even better!

the reason they don't is that it doesn't work at their level any more, or to a less degree.

[chunlimeyers]

I have probably wrote about this too many times, but still somehow enjoy helping as my strategy against these players gets more solid. And, everyone else above my post, was right, but I like to keep it simple, from trial and error, i found the easiest way to keep them from doing what they want to do to you.
1)instead of serve hard/flat, serve the highest kick serve or spin serve you can manage... why?.. well, that makes it nearly impossible for their returns to stay as low.. they can still get them short, but the ball will stay higher, maybe 5 inches or more, enough to blast a hard approach shot at them to their backhand.
2)On that plane, instead of hitting hard, try to hit heavy, heavy topspin or even moonballs(but they will probably moonball back), so keep to heavy topspin to their backhand side.. why? well, a high backhand is tough to backspin low and bounce low, even if they try, it tends to sit up, and thus give u more margin(and time) to blast that approach to their backhand and prepare for a lob(their favorite "passing shot")
3)Work 9 months like i did to get this forceful approach shot so you can make 8 out of 10, instead of 2 out of 10.(the pusher wins because u practice with your buddy for MONTHS from the baseline, but barely at all, if ever, on your non-existent approach shot(this is why U are at the level that you are at, believe it) the approach shot is much lower percentage play because the length of the court shrinks greatly, and thus your precision has to be better, so to not miss this shot(and the pusher knows this and feeds on these statistics) Also, the pusher knows or believes at this level he cannot effectively be attacked because instead of you being able to hit 80mph from the baseline, his lower/shorter ball, IF u keep it in, now you are hitting at his level, bunting the ball at 40mph.. well, he can cover THAT, all day!
4)Play in the backcourt at the baseline, and think that the pushers winner isn't a ball hit past you, but a short, shallow ball, and try to anticipate it off his racket and learn to POUNCE on these balls, instead of react late to them... then, it will almost, almost, be, "fun?"..
5)Almost forgot, returns.. pushers have thick rackets and their game is blocking things back.. so, you have two options.. a)hit your heaviest topspin shot(you might not get a ball this high all point), to their backhand, or, really, any spot deep and in play, or b)and, don't rely on "b" expecially if the errors start cropping up, BLAST that first ball DOWN THE LINE FOR EITHER A WINNER OR AT LEAST TAKE AWAY HIS TIME!.. now, b is way harder than it looks on paper, and i have seen pushers even serve purposely with a BACKSPIN SERVE to keep it low and force their play from the get go!.. So, react and adjust accordingly.
The only thing that i don't agree with is to try to be them, to try to "wear them down".. because their mindset is BUILT for that.. they know they can be more boring than u, ALL DAY LONG, and are usually very fast little buggers. So, I go for the direct approach. If I lose, well, it is down to stats for me, too.. i missed 7 out of 10 approach shots, and framed 3 overheads.. If i win, I made thos 7 out of 10 approach shots and only framed 1 overhead.
Oh, and, if he sees u can handle the overhead, hit his pathetic short crap for hard approach shots and then volley it away.. U may chase him out of his foxhole, and he will get angry and try to play what everyone sees on tv, what i like to call "real tennis" going for lines, trying to win.. haha.. Then, you have made a hard day turn into an easy one. Good luck with the practice.

[bhupaes]

^^^ You've described my strategy almost exactly, except I would say one needs to get into somewhat of a pusher mentality also, in the sense that one has to choose safe shots at all times, unless the ball is a cream puff sitter inside the service line.

With hard, flat shots, the pusher, with his 6-inch stroke, can use the pace you give him to block the ball back to where you don't like it. Flat shots are easy to redirect. But one has to stroke heavily spun balls to place them, and pushers are bad at that. Spinny shots always have some uncertainty about them - how high they'll bounce, how much they will break to one side, and of course the amount of spin that needs to be countered - so the pusher will not be able to bunt the ball back precisely.

Good post!

[hawk eye]

Originally Posted by mikeespinmusic

And I'm not talking drop shots...they're not good enough to do them - they don't need to. I hardly ever get a ball near the baseline or above my knee in a rally and I'm only 5 ft 9!.... so yeah, lots of knee bending...

One simple solution to this. Move a couple of inches/yards (as much as you need to) inside the baseline and punish the junk. Not neccesarily hit a direct winner, but hit at least offensive shot. Those kind of low bouncing short balls are ideal to attack if you're in the right position. And of course be prepared to move back if they start to hit deeper balls. But it's hard for them to come out of their groove, so with standing a little forward as your ready postion you're probably be fine.

[Dimcorner]

I actually feel ok playing pushers because I actually have a decent overhead and volley compared to my crappy forehand! I find it MUCH easier to beat these type of players than ones that can actually hit decent balls. I get much more time to get to the net with the slow pushers Last time I played on I crushed about 4 overheads before he changed his tactic and tried to play "real tennis". Didn't work either since he was just sending them out at that point. Sure he would get some passing shots at me that were nice but I just let that slide and kept the pressure up.

[Anaconda]

Originally Posted by ollinger

You might need a good sports psychologist. If it is "insulting" that someone feeds you the type of ball you're used to while warming up, you have issues and don't realize that you're being shown courtesy there. And blaming players you have trouble with because they don't hit what you consider PROPER shots (anything in the rule book about what sort of shot to hit??) is just childish.

I'm surprised he's moaning; Tennis should be a challenge and it's the challenge which is enjoyable.


OP, when facing these unfair players who aren't playing to your liking i.e defensive players, improve your net game. That's normally the key thing against junk ballers or defensive minded players.

[mikeespinmusic]

Originally Posted by 10isfreak

Well, at the very least they offer you something to get your rhythm going... if they were pushing during warm-ups, that would be a total lack of class and sportsmanship, but they do bother about you grooving your strokes and getting ready. Be thankful for that part.

I do understand your frustration and, unlike many people, I won't be insulting. You love your sport and probably play for the sensations you get on the court which basically makes pushing a very bothersome context since it deprives you of your main enjoyment. However, there are solutions to this problem and we can work on fixing these issues.

First things first, your overall approach to the game is not appropriate: your basic game plan is so field-specific that pretty much anyone with a decent slice can throw off your entire scheme. I am certain that you rally with division 2 and perhaps even division 1 players without the slightest issue, so long as we're talking coast-to-coast tennis. Many of the players you face see you hitting when you warm-up and if they're just half as good as you pretend, they're good enough to spot your preferences and tendencies: you love to hit spin, you love to take and smack high balls... but you hate your net game and it's a very rough approximation of what you could normally do.

What do you think they quickly get? As they hit in the first few minutes, they'll try lower balls, softer strokes or angles to see where is your major flaw and it happens that moving forward is your nightmare. Without effort, a good player would slice, move you around and expel some energy only to end the point. If you want to avoid this situation from occurring all the time, you need to learn how to play a good transition game and how to use certain strokes to force them into YOUR game instead of being forced into something that you don't like.

The first thing you want to bother about is actually practicing a controlled aggression on lower balls: you need to be able to be offensive more easily and more safely with lower balls that are within the court. Secondly, you might like to be strategic in your ball placement: it's not always a necessity to hit a perfect shot that is excessively powerful to win the point. Sometimes, just a softer, well placed ball at an angle would throw your opponent off the court.

Finally, once you're good with low balls, you need to understand how to make it difficult for your opponent to keep the balls low. It's really hard to hit good slices when moving or on pretty high balls and it's also harder to do it on the forehand side (typically). The easiest way to manage to bring the whole rally higher is to length your court by hitting cross-court and to rely on spin to bring the ball higher off the bounce... And since it's a pusher, you can afford to hit a softer shot to his forehand: even if it floats a bit, that it has way too much spin for its pace and that it lands short, chances are, a guy who spends the match pushing won't kill too many high balls. You risk to finally get the ball you want to play your game.


Amateurs who have troubles with pushers typically lack this ability to use a controlled aggression. Either out poor strategic choices or a lack of practice regarding in-court tennis. Regardless, you need this controlled aggression to beat pushers without beating yourself and this accurate and nuance type of response is found in experienced and advanced players.

Use pushers as a way to improve and re-write yourself into a division 2 or division 1 player instead of just complaining about it and not solving the problem. Accommodation is one way to evolve intellectually: tackle the challenge when you are lucky enough to face one.

Slices are actually quite rare among these players...The first 50 short junk balls to dig out are always the easiest to apply proper theories... I'll take note from everything from most constructive feedbacks. I made the 4th round for a recent AMT (Australian Money) tounrnament (similar to USA Challenger matches) against Australian Ranked players. so I don't feel like my training and standard of play is the issue. Since posting this I've switched to using a depolarized setup and have had more success. It allows for a good flat penetrating counter against this and it forces them to pop it up for a good chance at an over head or a big forehand.

And the club is phasing out these balls, because it turns out I wasn't the only person that was annoyed about this. The club was losing money, nobody new wanted to join those div 2 and 3 ranks. It was a combination of slow carpet, that brand of ball and that was encouraging cheap play. The club is switching to a faster slazenger ball thank god!

[BeHappy]

Unless you have played on synthetic grass you have no idea how effective or unplayable slices are on that surface. It is absolutely terrible. They bounce at ankle height and sometimes they'll just roll along the ground.

I can only recommend going to the net. Hit a slice approach. There's a very good reason baseliners couldn't win Wimbledon on the fast grass. Why do you think Laver and McEnroe had continental grips for their groundstrokes? Because slices on surfaces like that are just unplayable without them.

There is also a reason Santoro won the HOF championship on that lightning fast incredibly low bouncing surface so many times.

[mikeespinmusic]

Originally Posted by BeHappy

Unless you have played on synthetic grass you have no idea how effective or unplayable slices are on that surface. It is absolutely terrible. They bounce at ankle height and sometimes they'll just roll along the ground.

I can only recommend going to the net. Hit a slice approach. There's a very good reason baseliners couldn't win Wimbledon on the fast grass.

There is also a reason Santoro won the HOF championship on that lightning fast incredibly low bouncing surface so many times.

I agree totally. Its exploiting the surface and ball brand. The club's losing players and money. And they're changing to a bouncier and faster ball.

Some people were saying that fed does it a lot, I don't think fed is that dirty - its just his topspin thats pulling it down giving that illusion...

[Moz]

One of the huge failures of the LTA in the UK was the financial support they offered to clubs who built artificial grass courts. Absolute insanity, the stuff is awful.

[Raul_SJ]

Originally Posted by luvforty

being frank here -

OP's thinking is a fallacy - you can NOT bypass junkballers and hope to compete in a higher level.

because the higher level players all can do junk balls, even better!

the reason they don't is that it doesn't work at their level any more, or to a less degree.

Reading the OP, I first thought it was from a rec player complaining about pushers.

But apparently he is playing the equivalent of U.S. 5.0+ level in Australia, which is surprising because I thought the pushing players are not found at that high level...

[Venetian]

Originally Posted by Raul_SJ

Reading the OP, I first thought it was from a rec player complaining about pushers.

But apparently he is playing the equivalent of U.S. 5.0+ level in Australia, which is surprising because I thought the pushing players are not found at that high level...

Yeah he actually said he's a professional player, making the 4th round of a "Challenger" level match in Australia. I think he may be exaggerating his level a bit. I have a hard time imagining Robert Kendrick or Ryan Sweeting complaining about pushers.

[North]

Originally Posted by Raul_SJ

Reading the OP, I first thought it was from a rec player complaining about pushers.

But apparently he is playing the equivalent of U.S. 5.0+ level in Australia, which is surprising because I thought the pushing players are not found at that high level...

It sounded like the OP was describing a junkballer & those can do OK at fairly high levels of play. Santoro frustrated Safin with crazy spins, short balls, drop shots, etc; it drove Safin crazy.

I can't think of any current players who make a career of junkballs, but there are certainly players who use strategic junkballing in matches. It's not playing dirty, it just takes advantage of a common weakness in a lot of hard-hitting ball bashers by messing with rhythm & timing.