My thoughts on competitiveness

[Fintft]

Originally Posted by jonnythan

I don't care about winning and losing, but I do care about fairness. I think a lot of this drama would be completely eradicated if people simply followed the code.

Oh, I try to ignore things outside of my control (aka drama), but how about handling your own emotions? B/c that's the most interesting part, at least for me.

[Woolybugger]

It all starts in junior tennis. Just go to any tournament and you will see the same things. Very sad state of affairs. It's really up to the parents to correct this from the start and tell them there's much more than winning/losing matches. They completely miss the point of tennis.

[Fintft]

Originally Posted by Fintft

Yes, I read this tip from him in the "Ask Nick" column at tennis.com around last year - he said that "a weak second serve was the biggest flaw at club level" (I paraphrase, can't find that article anymore). I may be creatively applying his broader strategy, of course...

Found it:

"The second serve hurts recreational players more than any other stroke in the game"

__________________________________________________ __
1. Second Serve:
The second serve hurts recreational players more than any other stroke in the game. Often they can hit a good first serve, one that wins them easy points or at least gives them time to set up for the next shot. And then the second serve comes, slowly over the net, waiting to be destroyed. The further away from the professional ranks you get, the bigger the gap between the first and second serve. The No. 1 thing you can do to improve your game is to close that gap. It won't be easy, and it will take not only a lot of practice, but a lot of frustration and disappointment during matches. It's one thing to improve your second serve on the practice court, and another to have the confidence to hit it during a match. It will be worth the investment, though. These two drills will get you going in the right direction.
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[jonnythan]

Originally Posted by Fintft

Oh, I try to ignore things outside of my control (aka drama), but how about handling your own emotions? B/c that's the most interesting part, at least for me.

I leave my emotions at the gate. And I play by the rules. I hold my opponent to the rules, and I expect to be held to the rules. End of story.

[chatt_town]

I've ran across some that are just Aholes whether they are on or off the court. They are miserable and they are there to make you miserable. These are the ones that do things like won't warmup in a proper manner...hitting screaming winner forehands...drop shots...things of that nature...basically trying to win the warmup.

Then you have the drill sargeant type. Everything is straight up and down by the rules....15 minute time limit to show up...3 minute injury timeout..etc...

Then you have those that are just happy to be breathing and are just social. These people just enjoy the game and want to meet different people...maybe network for other reasons. So I am competitive but I don't take it that serious. I've been known to go have lunch with some folks that have just kicked my @$$ on the court. I really give everything while I'm out there but once it's over...I might spend 2 minutes on the court ticked about it...but once I walk off the court I pretty much forget about it..win or lose. It's just not that serious.

Originally Posted by omega4

After reading a number of threads in this sub forum, I think I might be the only one who thinks that some players take their league tennis way too seriously.

I like to win in life as much as the next person. But with the exception of my job and career, it isn't like winning in league tennis is the end all be all of my existence.

I mean, it's not like we're playing in a million dollar tournament. So I think why don't more players lighten up and just have fun playing quality tennis?

[chatt_town]

You know it's for fun when you have to spend time trying to convince the ball you just hit is "out".lol I play with a guy that plays balls sometimes that are clearly out...so I just started stopping the points and calling them out myself.lol He would every now and then try to argue the ball was in...it's funny but we neither of us want to win knowing 6 or 7 balls got played that shouldn't have been.lol

Originally Posted by omega4

I'm with you. As I don't have an pro tennis career aspirations (or delusions?), I'd much rather play with someone who is fun with a pleasant disposition than a great player who can't even crack a smile or manage to carry a conversation other than mumbling a few words.

The same goes for my playing golf. I find playing a round with a good natured, fun novice more preferable than with a great golfer with a personality of a stone. The latter type of player can make a 4 hour golf round seem like a 8 hour round.

[Fintft]

Originally Posted by jonnythan

I leave my emotions at the gate. And I play by the rules. I hold my opponent to the rules, and I expect to be held to the rules. End of story.

Good for you, if you can do that. See also Bolettieris Top 10 tips.

[Fintft]

Originally Posted by Fintft

Found it:

"The second serve hurts recreational players more than any other stroke in the game"

__________________________________________________ __
1. Second Serve:
The second serve hurts recreational players more than any other stroke in the game. Often they can hit a good first serve, one that wins them easy points or at least gives them time to set up for the next shot. And then the second serve comes, slowly over the net, waiting to be destroyed. The further away from the professional ranks you get, the bigger the gap between the first and second serve. The No. 1 thing you can do to improve your game is to close that gap. It won't be easy, and it will take not only a lot of practice, but a lot of frustration and disappointment during matches. It's one thing to improve your second serve on the practice court, and another to have the confidence to hit it during a match. It will be worth the investment, though. These two drills will get you going in the right direction.
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http://tennisopolis.com/forum/topics...ource=activity

“On the “The further away from the professional ranks you get, the bigger the gap between the first and second serve. The No. 1 thing you can do to improve your game is to close that gap.”-

Personally, I just serve my first serve, TWICE (the second being usually better, having the first one as a warm-up + the surprise factor).

To elaborate, I don’t vary my first serve much, but just b/c I’m more relaxed, I may get more spin and better placement…

[Fintft]

Originally Posted by chatt_town

I've ran across some that are just Aholes whether they are on or off the court. They are miserable and they are there to make you miserable. These are the ones that do things like won't warmup in a proper manner...hitting screaming winner forehands...drop shots...things of that nature...basically trying to win the warmup.

Then you have the drill sargeant type. Everything is straight up and down by the rules....15 minute time limit to show up...3 minute injury timeout..etc...

Then you have those that are just happy to be breathing and are just social. These people just enjoy the game and want to meet different people...maybe network for other reasons. So I am competitive but I don't take it that serious. I've been known to go have lunch with some folks that have just kicked my @$$ on the court. I really give everything while I'm out there but once it's over...I might spend 2 minutes on the court ticked about it...but once I walk off the court I pretty much forget about it..win or lose. It's just not that serious.

The guys who want to win the warmup that way are just tedious, but I'm a tad confuse as to how to handle the plain screamers/noise makers (especially from nearby courts, since I have good peripheral vision also and everything is a distraction)

I would drive nuts the drill sergeants with my many tosses (sometimes over the 20 seconds limit)

If I'm beaten fair and square, I'm like you, just congratulate the guy and happy for the experience, but if I lose to an ahole, then it's a different story (hey, even if he just plays destructive tennis is enough to spoil my appetite for his company).

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Fintft

The question was asked, can they start their serving farther back, so that they don't step into the court?
Or would that still be against the newer rules? Walking into the serve that is?

Ferrer takes a step into the serve. Most club players who footfault don't walk into the serve. So in theory they just need to move back a little. But when they start thinking about it, their already-bad biomechanics kicks in and they dink their serve or fault it.

[Fintft]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Ferrer takes a step into the serve. Most club players who footfault don't walk into the serve. So in theory they just need to move back a little. But when they start thinking about it, their already-bad biomechanics kicks in and they dink their serve or fault it.

Anyhow, walking should be forbidden right? Irregardless if they step into the court or not:

From wikipedia:
A foot fault takes place when the server assumes an illegal position while serving. A server's feet must not touch the baseline or the extension of the center line until the ball is struck. The server is also required to stay roughly on the same position to prevent the opponent from being misled as to where the serve will originate. Running or walking while serving is not allowed.

[OrangePower]

Originally Posted by Fintft

“On the “The further away from the professional ranks you get, the bigger the gap between the first and second serve. The No. 1 thing you can do to improve your game is to close that gap.”-

Personally, I just serve my first serve, TWICE (the second being usually better, having the first one as a warm-up + the surprise factor).

To elaborate, I don’t vary my first serve much, but just b/c I’m more relaxed, I may get more spin and better placement…

I agree that for many club players, the 2nd serve is a liability. I also agree that there should not be a big gap between 1st and 2nd in terms of effectiveness.

Having said that though, I also think that serving your 'first' serve twice means leaving easy points on the table, so to speak.

Here's what I mean:
My 1st serve % is around 60%, serving at 90 - 110 mph.
My 2nd serve % is around 90%, serving at 70 - 90 mph.

This means I can expect to DF about 4% of the time, which is acceptable to me.

If I serve my 'real' 1st serve twice, my expected DF % rises to 16%. This is too high and means giving away too many free points.

If I use my 2nd as my 1st serve, then my expected DF % is only 1%. But then I am not getting nearly as many easy points on service winners.

There is a reason why pros have a different 1st serve vs 2nd serve, and why their serve % is lower on 1st serve. If your 'first' serve is reliable enough to use as a second, that's great... then it should be your second serve, and you need to take more chances with more power / spin / placement on the 1st serve!

What Nick is really saying is that club players need to develop a 2nd serve that is not easily attackable, and that is 100% correct.

[Buford T Justice]

Originally Posted by OrangePower

This means I can expect to DF about 4% of the time, which is acceptable to me.

Me too. If one never DF's it means they are serving too conservatively.

I figure if I DF once a set I am OK with it....probably a good balance between service winners and point giveaways.

[Buford T Justice]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Ferrer takes a step into the serve. Most club players who footfault don't walk into the serve. So in theory they just need to move back a little. But when they start thinking about it, their already-bad biomechanics kicks in and they dink their serve or fault it.

Arthur Ashe (the greatest tennis player of all time in my book!!!!) also took a step into the serve. He started a half step back and moved forward.

[Fintft]

Originally Posted by OrangePower

What Nick is really saying is that club players need to develop a 2nd serve that is not easily attackable, and that is 100% correct.

For most club players rated say 3-3.5 even the first serve is a liability, not to mention having the time and dedication to develop an effective 2nd one lol.

I know people who use their 2nd serve as the first and as a result not only do they lose free points (as you said), but they also lose the points outright due to winning returns. That's also highly demoralizing, inducing more DFs (even on the 2nd serve ) and so forth.

With my tactics at least you develop a decent (first) serve and like I said sometimes I tune it down a bit and get more spin and placement, but it's not a totally different serve (say a kicker). Also b/c it's the same motion, your DFs tend to go down.
Remember the poster who was advocating not to vary your shots in terms of power, as to not induce more factors?

[OrangePower]

Originally Posted by Fintft

For most club players rated say 3-3.5 even the first serve is a liability, not to mention having the time and dedication to develop an effective 2nd one lol.

I know people who use their 2nd serve as the first and as a result not only do they lose free points (as you said), but they also lose the points outright due to winning returns. That's also highly demoralizing, inducing more DFs (even on the 2nd serve ) and so forth.

With my tactics at least you develop a decent (first) serve and like I said sometimes I tune it down a bit and get more spin and placement, but it's not a totally different serve (say a kicker). Also b/c it's the same motion, your DFs tend to go down.
Remember the poster who was advocating not to vary your shots in terms of power, as to not induce more factors?

Completely agree with the bolded bit, but really that should always be true. Motion and racquet head speed should remain pretty constant even for different kinds of serve. Slight adjustments in toss location and racquet face angle at point of contact is what provides most of the variation between 1st and 2nd and between different types of serves.

[gameboy]

Originally Posted by jonnythan

I don't care about winning and losing, but I do care about fairness. I think a lot of this drama would be completely eradicated if people simply followed the code.

lame.

The emphasis on fairness is what causes situations to get out of control. Too many people are obsessed with everything being equal. Which is why you have situations like make-up calls when you believe the opponent is cheating (even though they may be completely innocent.

Life is not fair. And you should not expect it to be different on the court. Let things slide a bit and not obsess about getting everything even and you will enjoy playing tennis that much more.

[jonnythan]

Fair doesn't mean getting everything even.

[Fintft]

Originally Posted by OrangePower

Completely agree with the bolded bit, but really that should always be true. Motion and racquet head speed should remain pretty constant even for different kinds of serve. Slight adjustments in toss location and racquet face angle at point of contact is what provides most of the variation between 1st and 2nd and between different types of serves.

Well, if you put that way, then yeah I do slight variations in racquet face angle, so you could say, that, at least at times, I use a 2nd serve.