MTO should have some penalty

[DropShotArtist]

Originally Posted by dman72

Simply give the players two 3 minute timeouts per match, to be used as they want....or one 3 and one 10 minute. If you can't get back on the court after 10 minutes due to an injury, you're done anyway.


That stops all the fake injury timeouts. You have the option of using your timeouts to take momentum away from your opponent, or hold them in reserve for an actual injury.

Huh? How does that stop faking? The option of using your timeouts to take away momentum is what we want stopped, not encouraged.

[mariecon]

Originally Posted by slal1984

And while the injured player is being tended to, the opponent who is all warmed up has to sit and will/may loose all their momentum, get cold, loose their focus..etc. Kinda like why sometimes NBA coaches take timeouts...How is this fair?

Then maybe while the player is getting the MTO the opponent gets to confer with his team. That would put an end to gamesmanship because it would benefit the opponent.

[cknobman]

Originally Posted by North

I think the only penalty should be that you forfeit a game if you take the MTO on your opponent's serve.

I think this is a fair solution.

It is becoming far too common in todays game for players to take MTO's before their opponents serve (which I thought the chair was not supposed to allow anyways).

[mariecon]

Originally Posted by cknobman

I think this is a fair solution.

It is becoming far too common in todays game for players to take MTO's before their opponents serve (which I thought the chair was not supposed to allow anyways).

yes you're right and if a player is injured on court to the point that they can't play that game then they forfeit the game. Then they can have their MTO, on their own serve.

[woodrow1029]

Originally Posted by cknobman

I think this is a fair solution.

It is becoming far too common in todays game for players to take MTO's before their opponents serve (which I thought the chair was not supposed to allow anyways).

That is not correct.

[mariecon]

Here is the ATP rule for MTO:
(not sure if majors have different rules)

3) Medical Time-Out
A medical time-out is allowed by the supervisor or chair umpire when the physiotherapist
has evaluated the player and has determined that additional time for
medical treatment is required. The medical time-out takes place during a change
over or set break, unless the physiotherapist determines that the player has developed
an acute medical condition that requires immediate medical treatment.
The medical time-out begins when the physiotherapist is ready to start treatment.
At the discretion of the physiotherapist, treatment during a medical time-out may
take place off-court, and may proceed in conjunction with the tournament Doctor.*
The medical time-out is limited to three (3) minutes of treatment. However, at professional
events with prize money of $35,000 or less, the supervisor may extend
the time allowed for treatment if necessary.
A player is allowed one (1) medical time-out for each distinct treatable medical
condition. All clinical manifestations of heat illness shall be considered as one (1)
treatable medical condition. All treatable musculoskeletal injuries that manifest as
part of a kinetic chain continuum shall be considered as one (1) treatable medical
condition.
A total of two (2) consecutive medical time-outs may be allowed by the supervisor
or chair umpire for the special circumstance in which the physiotherapist
determines that the player has developed at least two (2) distinct acute and treatable
medical conditions. This may include: a medical illness in conjunction with a
musculoskeletal injury; two or more acute and distinct musculoskeletal injuries.
In such cases, the physiotherapist will perform a medical evaluation for the two
or more treatable medical conditions during a single evaluation, and may then
determine that two consecutive medical time-outs are required.
4) Muscle Cramping
A player may receive treatment for muscle cramping only during the time allotted
for changeovers and/or set breaks. Players may not receive a medical time-out
for muscle cramping. In cases where there is doubt about whether the player
suffers from an acute medical condition, non-acute medical condition inclusive of
muscle cramping, or non-treatable medical condition, the decision of the Physiotherapist,
in conjunction with the tournament doctor, if appropriate, is fi nal. There
may be a total of two (2) full change of ends treatments for muscle cramping in a
match, not necessarily consecutive.
Note: A player who has stopped play by claiming an acute medical condition, but
is determined by the Physiotherapist and/or tournament doctor to have muscle
cramping, shall be instructed by the Chair Umpire to resume play immediately.
If the player cannot continue playing due to severe muscle cramping, as determined
by the Physiotherapist and/or tournament doctor, he may forfeit the
point(s)/game(s) needed to get to a change of end or set-break in order to receive
treatment.
If it is determined by the Chair Umpire or Supervisor that gamesmanship was
involved, then a Code Violation for Unsportsmanlike Conduct could be issued.
5) Medical Treatment
A player may receive on-court medical treatment and/or supplies from the Physiotherapist
and/or tournament Doctor during any changeover or set break. As a
guideline, such medical treatment should be limited to two (2) changeovers/set
breaks for each treatable medical condition, before or after a medical time-out,
and need not be consecutive. Players may not receive medical treatment for nontreatable
medical conditions.
6) Penalty
After completion of a medical time-out or medical treatment, any delay in resumption
of play shall be penalized by Code Violations for Delay of Game.
Any player abuse of this medical rule will be subject to penalty in accordance with
the Unsportsmanlike Conduct section of the Code of Conduct.
7) Bleeding
If a player is bleeding, the chair umpire must stop play as soon as possible, and
the physiotherapist should be called to the court for evaluation and treatment.
The physiotherapist, in conjunction with the tournament Doctor if appropriate, will
evaluate the source of the bleeding, and will request a medical time-out for treatment
if necessary.
If requested by the physiotherapist and/or tournament Doctor, the supervisor or
chair umpire may allow up to a total of fi ve (5) minutes to assure control of the
bleeding.

But I seem to recall Azarenka was off court for close to 10 minutes wasn't she? It should have been 6 minutes max.

[dman72]

Originally Posted by DropShotArtist

Huh? How does that stop faking? The option of using your timeouts to take away momentum is what we want stopped, not encouraged.

It stops the "faking" completely, because now, you have your time outs..you use them as you see fit or need to. If you get injured after trying to game your opponent with a legal time out, that was your blunder on your part.

The fact is, that's what MTO's are used for anyway. You are not going to be able to stop people "faking" injuries as long as they can use it to stop the match for a momentum shift.

So, either give alotted timeouts for any reason, or say if you get injured and can't play, you lose. That's how you stop faking injuries.

You and I hate the gamey aspect of injury timeouts, but if everyone has the same number of timeouts and using them is an accepted tactic, then the controversy ends.

[dman72]

Originally Posted by mariecon

Here is the ATP rule for MTO:
(not sure if majors have different rules)

3) Medical Time-Out
A medical time-out is allowed by the supervisor or chair umpire when the physiotherapist
has evaluated the player and has determined that additional time for
medical treatment is required. The medical time-out takes place during a change
over or set break, unless the physiotherapist determines that the player has developed
an acute medical condition that requires immediate medical treatment.
The medical time-out begins when the physiotherapist is ready to start treatment.
At the discretion of the physiotherapist, treatment during a medical time-out may
take place off-court, and may proceed in conjunction with the tournament Doctor.*
.

The whole rule is a joke because how can someone prove they strained their back or twisted their knee as opposed to faking it?

Again, take the judgement out of it. You either get timeouts for whatever reason the player wants to use them, or make it that any player who can't be ready to play in 3 minutes loses the match.

[woodrow1029]

Originally Posted by mariecon

Here is the ATP rule for MTO:
(not sure if majors have different rules)

3) Medical Time-Out
A medical time-out is allowed by the supervisor or chair umpire when the physiotherapist
has evaluated the player and has determined that additional time for
medical treatment is required. The medical time-out takes place during a change
over or set break, unless the physiotherapist determines that the player has developed
an acute medical condition that requires immediate medical treatment.
The medical time-out begins when the physiotherapist is ready to start treatment.
At the discretion of the physiotherapist, treatment during a medical time-out may
take place off-court, and may proceed in conjunction with the tournament Doctor.*
The medical time-out is limited to three (3) minutes of treatment. However, at professional
events with prize money of $35,000 or less, the supervisor may extend
the time allowed for treatment if necessary.
A player is allowed one (1) medical time-out for each distinct treatable medical
condition. All clinical manifestations of heat illness shall be considered as one (1)
treatable medical condition. All treatable musculoskeletal injuries that manifest as
part of a kinetic chain continuum shall be considered as one (1) treatable medical
condition.
A total of two (2) consecutive medical time-outs may be allowed by the supervisor
or chair umpire for the special circumstance in which the physiotherapist
determines that the player has developed at least two (2) distinct acute and treatable
medical conditions. This may include: a medical illness in conjunction with a
musculoskeletal injury; two or more acute and distinct musculoskeletal injuries.
In such cases, the physiotherapist will perform a medical evaluation for the two
or more treatable medical conditions during a single evaluation, and may then
determine that two consecutive medical time-outs are required.
4) Muscle Cramping
A player may receive treatment for muscle cramping only during the time allotted
for changeovers and/or set breaks. Players may not receive a medical time-out
for muscle cramping. In cases where there is doubt about whether the player
suffers from an acute medical condition, non-acute medical condition inclusive of
muscle cramping, or non-treatable medical condition, the decision of the Physiotherapist,
in conjunction with the tournament doctor, if appropriate, is fi nal. There
may be a total of two (2) full change of ends treatments for muscle cramping in a
match, not necessarily consecutive.
Note: A player who has stopped play by claiming an acute medical condition, but
is determined by the Physiotherapist and/or tournament doctor to have muscle
cramping, shall be instructed by the Chair Umpire to resume play immediately.
If the player cannot continue playing due to severe muscle cramping, as determined
by the Physiotherapist and/or tournament doctor, he may forfeit the
point(s)/game(s) needed to get to a change of end or set-break in order to receive
treatment.
If it is determined by the Chair Umpire or Supervisor that gamesmanship was
involved, then a Code Violation for Unsportsmanlike Conduct could be issued.
5) Medical Treatment
A player may receive on-court medical treatment and/or supplies from the Physiotherapist
and/or tournament Doctor during any changeover or set break. As a
guideline, such medical treatment should be limited to two (2) changeovers/set
breaks for each treatable medical condition, before or after a medical time-out,
and need not be consecutive. Players may not receive medical treatment for nontreatable
medical conditions.
6) Penalty
After completion of a medical time-out or medical treatment, any delay in resumption
of play shall be penalized by Code Violations for Delay of Game.
Any player abuse of this medical rule will be subject to penalty in accordance with
the Unsportsmanlike Conduct section of the Code of Conduct.
7) Bleeding
If a player is bleeding, the chair umpire must stop play as soon as possible, and
the physiotherapist should be called to the court for evaluation and treatment.
The physiotherapist, in conjunction with the tournament Doctor if appropriate, will
evaluate the source of the bleeding, and will request a medical time-out for treatment
if necessary.
If requested by the physiotherapist and/or tournament Doctor, the supervisor or
chair umpire may allow up to a total of fi ve (5) minutes to assure control of the
bleeding.

But I seem to recall Azarenka was off court for close to 10 minutes wasn't she? It should have been 6 minutes max.

I have explained this several times already, but here we go again (the short version).

6 minutes max for treatment yes. But, there is diagnosis/evaluation time, which is limited only to "reasonable time". Plus there is the time to walk off court, and the time to get dressed again after the treatment. Therefore, people should stop saying that the back to back MTO's should be limited to 6 minutes.

Yes the slams have slightly different rules, and I posted the relevant rules for the slams at least 2 times in other threads.

The chair umpire is not a doctor. As such, if the player says he needs the trainer and can't wait until the next changeover, or before their own serve, etc., it's not the chair umpire's call. It's the trainer's call whether or not the player can receive treatment.

Additionally, in Australia, the rule is that the doctor must also be present. You had a trainer and a doctor saying that Azarenka had 2 legitimate treatable conditions. Now whether Azarenka was faking them, that's another issue, but as was just said, it's hard to tell even for a doctor or trainer with the tools they have in that situation to determine whether or not she is faking.

The only time basically a chair umpire can deny a trainer coming on court is if a player flat out says they are cramping, as there is no medical timeout for cramping.

[NadalDramaQueen]

Originally Posted by woodrow1029

I still suggest:

Mto can be taken only at 2 times:

1. During a set break;
2. Or before/during your own serve

If something happens before/during your opponents serve, you can forfeit points/game to get to your serve or the set break.

Something like this, you gotta make it the same for legit and illegit ones. Can't put any judgement or subjectivity in it, or it doesn't work.

So many threads about MTO's, but this is the solution. This post should be stickied and made into the only thread on the subject. Too many as it is.

[TennisCJC]

Lot's of good ideas here. Maybe max 2 timeouts for 3 minutes to use however the player wants. TV advertising would like it.

Or, a point penalty could be a good idea too.

Also, as someone mentioned, allowing the opponent to receive coaching advice while the player received MTO has merit.

But, yes, something needs to be done to curb the abuse. I like a point penalty. Maybe point penalty on the 1st MTO and point penalty and coaching for opponent on the 2nd MTO.

[Vrad]

Originally Posted by dman72

Simply give the players two 3 minute timeouts per match, to be used as they want....or one 3 and one 10 minute. If you can't get back on the court after 10 minutes due to an injury, you're done anyway.


That stops all the fake injury timeouts. You have the option of using your timeouts to take momentum away from your opponent, or hold them in reserve for an actual injury.

I like this idea. With the addition that after the player has used their allotted timeouts, they have to forfeit 1 game (the one being played if they are in a game, or the next one, if between games) if they still need to call an MTO.

Edit: I think this is necessary because of the bad publicity tennis would get if a player is not allowed an MTO after the allotted timeouts, and a player hurts themselves even more while playing through an injury. I mean, just consider how Nadal fans would react if he injured himself because he was unable to take an MTO after using his allotted TOs and injures himself and has to sit out 6 months. While their point may be invalid (Nadal should have forfeited if he couldn't play anymore, or shouldn't have used the TOs earlier) it would still hurt the sport's publicity.

[woodrow1029]

Any idea which involves "a player must retire or continue without treatment" or some variation of that would be bad for the sport's publicity.

I'm not saying my idea is the best, because I am sure that there is someone out there who has good ideas also, but MTO's should be allowed, and if they are going to limit them, it should be a simple limitation. I think mine emphasizes the need to take it on the set break or their own serve only, and if they need it at their opponent's serve, they can forfeit either points or 1 game to get to their own serve.

I don't think someone should be penalized for taking it before their own serve or at a set break.

This is similar to the current cramping rule already in place. Changeover treatment for cramping only at a changeover/set break. If they cramp during a game, they can forfeit points or games to get to the changeover/setbreak.

With my suggestion, it is simple, and it is in line similar to something that is already in place.

[DropShotArtist]

Originally Posted by dman72

It stops the "faking" completely, because now, you have your time outs..you use them as you see fit or need to. If you get injured after trying to game your opponent with a legal time out, that was your blunder on your part.

The fact is, that's what MTO's are used for anyway. You are not going to be able to stop people "faking" injuries as long as they can use it to stop the match for a momentum shift.

So, either give alotted timeouts for any reason, or say if you get injured and can't play, you lose. That's how you stop faking injuries.

You and I hate the gamey aspect of injury timeouts, but if everyone has the same number of timeouts and using them is an accepted tactic, then the controversy ends.

The thing is, the majority of tennis matches don't have injuries of any sort or MTOs for that matter. Therefore allotting specified timeouts will actually result in more gamesmanship since players will use them for that for the most part. And trust me when that strategy is used against your favourite player on the verge of closing it out, you will blow up.

[dman72]

Originally Posted by DropShotArtist

The thing is, the majority of tennis matches don't have injuries of any sort or MTOs for that matter. Therefore allotting specified timeouts will actually result in more gamesmanship since players will use them for that for the most part. And trust me when that strategy is used against your favourite player on the verge of closing it out, you will blow up.

Not if it's available for your favorite player to use when he's in the same situation for the next match, right?

It wouldn't be "gamesmanship", it would be a legal tactic that is used in many other sports..."icing" the kicker in American football, timeouts in hockey to reorganize your players, etc.

Gamesmanship is bending the rules or acting like a jerk to try to throw your opponents off.

A timeout is a timeout, a benefit given to all the players in every match...it's a few minutes.

[dman72]

Originally Posted by Vrad

I like this idea. With the addition that after the player has used their allotted timeouts, they have to forfeit 1 game (the one being played if they are in a game, or the next one, if between games) if they still need to call an MTO.

Edit: I think this is necessary because of the bad publicity tennis would get if a player is not allowed an MTO after the allotted timeouts, and a player hurts themselves even more while playing through an injury. I mean, just consider how Nadal fans would react if he injured himself because he was unable to take an MTO after using his allotted TOs and injures himself and has to sit out 6 months. While their point may be invalid (Nadal should have forfeited if he couldn't play anymore, or shouldn't have used the TOs earlier) it would still hurt the sport's publicity.

I think it's MUCH worse publicity when Nadal and Azarenka use fake injuries to throw off their opponents.

If he's that prone to REAL injuries, he would just NEVER use his allotted timeouts tactically.

[woodrow1029]

Originally Posted by Vrad

While their point may be invalid (Nadal should have forfeited if he couldn't play anymore, or shouldn't have used the TOs earlier) it would still hurt the sport's publicity.

Originally Posted by dman72

I think it's MUCH worse publicity when Nadal and Azarenka use fake injuries to throw off their opponents.

If he's that prone to REAL injuries, he would just NEVER use his allotted timeouts tactically.

Come on dman, you can't really feel that way, can you? You think it would be worse publicity for a player to use suspect injuries than a player having to retire because no trainers are allowed when there is a legitimate injury? I certainly hope that is not your logic.

Besides, I missed where there is any proof of fake injuries.

[dman72]

Originally Posted by woodrow1029

Come on dman, you can't really feel that way, can you? You think it would be worse publicity for a player to use suspect injuries than a player having to retire because no trainers are allowed when there is a legitimate injury? I certainly hope that is not your logic.

Besides, I missed where there is any proof of fake injuries.

It's the mysterious timing that raises the question.


Who said anything about no trainers? I simply think that a player whose momentum is thrown off by an apparent "injury" to another player should have the right to in turn use a timeout at his/her time of choosing later in the match without having to feign some injury of their own.

[single_handed_champion]

I think a reasonable compromise, in addition to what Woodrow proposes, is to allow the opponent to have coaching when someone takes an MTO. Like it or not, an MTO will throw off the opponent whether or not legitimate, so this will help. There is coaching allowed if they go off court (rain breaks) so why not this?

Giving the opponent a reasonable tactical advantage (like coaching) will serve as stronger deterrent than just waiting till one's serve. If someone is bent on using the MTO as a dirty tactic, waiting 1 more game is not a big deal. Also, I am not sure the serve thing is very relevant on the WTA where many players don't even count on holding serve.

Also limit the time. As it is, nothing can be done in 5 min (treat a locked rib in 3 min give me a break), so why not make it brief?

No back-to-back MTOs. If you want one, give up a game or a point a minute. Bad luck if it is legitimate. I find it hard to believe that top-class athletes would be playing with (or have them crop up during a match) multiple conditions when they are so fit and well-conditioned and travel with trainers and physios and what not.

[woodrow1029]

Originally Posted by single_handed_champion

I think a reasonable compromise, in addition to what Woodrow proposes, is to allow the opponent to have coaching when someone takes an MTO. Like it or not, an MTO will throw off the opponent whether or not legitimate, so this will help. There is coaching allowed if they go off court (rain breaks) so why not this?

Giving the opponent a reasonable tactical advantage (like coaching) will serve as stronger deterrent than just waiting till one's serve. If someone is bent on using the MTO as a dirty tactic, waiting 1 more game is not a big deal. Also, I am not sure the serve thing is very relevant on the WTA where many players don't even count on holding serve.

Also limit the time. As it is, nothing can be done in 5 min (treat a locked rib in 3 min give me a break), so why not make it brief?

No back-to-back MTOs. If you want one, give up a game or a point a minute. Bad luck if it is legitimate. I find it hard to believe that top-class athletes would be playing with (or have them crop up during a match) multiple conditions when they are so fit and well-conditioned and travel with trainers and physios and what not.

That is already in the rules for the WTA Tour. I don't think I see the ATP or ITF going with it though. Ya never know however.