Vince Spadea's tips on FH and Serve

[TennisCJC]

Originally Posted by max pl

Career record 311–359
Career titles 1
Plus criticism of todays top pros

Yeh, not gonna take this dudes opinion about anything tennis.

This guy was ranked number 18 in the world. That means on that day there were only 17 other players on the planet earth better than Vince. That's pretty good in my book.

By the way, Vince also went through a bad spell and lost 15 1st round matches in a row. Still doesn't detract from the fact that he made the Aussie Open quarterfinals and defeated Agassi, Nadal, Sampras and Federer. Round of 16 at Wimby and USO too.

[boramiNYC]

Originally Posted by sureshs

He is partially correct, as the upward speed seems to max out some time after contact, but the forward speed starts going down. The net speed seems to be going down after contact.

for a heavy topspin shot yeah that makes sense but for a flat winner racquet may not even go up. the swings vary alot depending on the kinda shot being hit. so it's hard to generalize. I wonder if Oscar believes the max v is reached far past the contact even for flat winners.

[Povl Carstensen]

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

Oscar clearly states the max v is achieved way past the contact point. Wouldn't this be wasting or sacrificing v for some other reason?

Well I am not Oscar.

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

Acceleration at contact is necessary but it may not even be the greatest in magnitude throughout the swing.

Okay

[Povl Carstensen]

Originally Posted by Topspin Shot

Povl, I think I see what you're saying. Accelerating the hand at impact might very well increase the effective mass of the racket+body at impact due to the inertia of the racket. However, I'm pretty sure that any gain in power due to this phenomenon would be more than canceled out by the fact that if the racket is accelerating at impact, it has not yet reached maximum velocity.

I am just comparing it with stopping the acceleration before impact, and in this case there should be a gain.

[Povl Carstensen]

Originally Posted by TennisCJC

I think de-cel-ing the hand is basically a kiss of death on your ground strokes. You want legs/hips/shoulder to pull arm/hand and hand to pull racket head up/thru and across. The rotation should be smooth and accelerating into and thru contract until it flows/runs out in a WW follow-thru.

Very much agreed.

[Povl Carstensen]

Originally Posted by sureshs

The net speed seems to be going down after contact.

Whether or not the racket accelerates after being slowed down by the impact is not really important to my point. But I would guess that it is not uncommon that it does. I guess it would be easy to see on superslow from the correct angle.

[2ndServe]

he says you need to hit a shot that penetrates the court ie moves through it. It's the same idea as Landsdrop and it's true for 5.0 plus tennis (need to penetrate the court relative to high level peers). Most kids hit what Landsdrop calls either a "usta ball" or "academy ball" and there are times when you need to hit that type of ball. But if that's your base shot you don't put enough pressure on a really good player. Now whatever you think of Landsdrop's ways of teaching etc the guy has developed the likes of austin, sampras, davenport, sharapova and other great champions. He knows the little things that matter at the higher levels.

[Relinquis]

Here's Spadea's tips to Nadal on his serve (more through) and other players on their volleys, 'firm' volleys...

http://youtu.be/Mbfl7IV6pQw?t=13m35s

[nightfire700]

Well I am not a tennis expert, but common sense will tell me that the exact distance to contact point is not known before hand when you are swinging the racquet. Hence its just not possible to start decelerating or swing such as to reach max velocity at the exact contact point because its not known till you actually hit the ball. Your only option is then to whip hard and continue to accelerate (or add velocity) till you hit the ball. Once the ball is hit and the signal is received by the brain, thats when you will start decelerating and get into the follow through mode and that would be well past the actual contact point and hence its safe to assume that the peak velocity will be a little after the contact point and not at the contact point or before the contact point.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by nightfire700

Well I am not a tennis expert, but common sense will tell me that the exact distance to contact point is not known before hand when you are swinging the racquet. Hence its just not possible to start decelerating or swing such as to reach max velocity at the exact contact point because its not known till you actually hit the ball. Your only option is then to whip hard and continue to accelerate (or add velocity) till you hit the ball. Once the ball is hit and the signal is received by the brain, thats when you will start decelerating and get into the follow through mode and that would be well past the actual contact point and hence its safe to assume that the peak velocity will be a little after the contact point and not at the contact point or before the contact point.

That seems to be true for the upward component of the speed, but not the forward component, or the net speed. That is because you did not factor in the effect of the impact. It has substantial effect in reducing the acceleration.

[luvforty]

honestly Vince looks like a clown here.

journeyman giving one of the all time greats a tip on the serve?

come on... the gap between rafa and vince is as big as between a 4.5 and a 4.0

[Povl Carstensen]

Originally Posted by nightfire700

Well I am not a tennis expert, but common sense will tell me that the exact distance to contact point is not known before hand when you are swinging the racquet. Hence its just not possible to start decelerating or swing such as to reach max velocity at the exact contact point because its not known till you actually hit the ball. Your only option is then to whip hard and continue to accelerate (or add velocity) till you hit the ball. Once the ball is hit and the signal is received by the brain, thats when you will start decelerating and get into the follow through mode and that would be well past the actual contact point and hence its safe to assume that the peak velocity will be a little after the contact point and not at the contact point or before the contact point.

Sounds very reasonable. Exept for the point that the racket will be slowed down by the contact with the ball, but that really has no importance for the principle in the discussion.

[TennisCJC]

Originally Posted by luvforty

honestly Vince looks like a clown here.

journeyman giving one of the all time greats a tip on the serve?

come on... the gap between rafa and vince is as big as between a 4.5 and a 4.0

Doesn't Vince have a win over Rafa? I think a top 100 pro could probably give legit advice on Rafa's serve. Yes, Rafa is great but his serve is not his best shot. Think if Rafa was R handed. Do you think his serve would be anywhere near as effective as it is now if he played R handed? His has the luxury of being L handed but just based on placement, speed, spin and depth, he might have to improve his serve if he was R handed.

[Relinquis]

Originally Posted by luvforty

honestly Vince looks like a clown here.

journeyman giving one of the all time greats a tip on the serve?

come on... the gap between rafa and vince is as big as between a 4.5 and a 4.0

by this reasoning only the likes of federer and sampras are in a position to give nadal tips...

[boramiNYC]

Originally Posted by nightfire700

Well I am not a tennis expert, but common sense will tell me that the exact distance to contact point is not known before hand when you are swinging the racquet. Hence its just not possible to start decelerating or swing such as to reach max velocity at the exact contact point because its not known till you actually hit the ball. Your only option is then to whip hard and continue to accelerate (or add velocity) till you hit the ball. Once the ball is hit and the signal is received by the brain, thats when you will start decelerating and get into the follow through mode and that would be well past the actual contact point and hence its safe to assume that the peak velocity will be a little after the contact point and not at the contact point or before the contact point.

Have you done any shadow swing? You can still accelerate and decelerate as in any regular swing. For real hitting there could be some deviations once in a while but mostly the contact point control is much more precise than how you describe for good players imo.

[Povl Carstensen]

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

Have you done any shadow swing? You can still accelerate and decelerate as in any regular swing. For real hitting there could be some deviations once in a while but mostly the contact point control is much more precise than how you describe for good players imo.

Yes, but I think most people would find it pretty weird feeling to deccelerate their shadow swing before contact.
Besides we are talking about milliseconds. I would think it is more feasible to maintain accelleration through contact than to stop it in a split second.

[boramiNYC]

Originally Posted by Povl Carstensen

Yes, but I think most people would find it pretty weird feeling to deccelerate their shadow swing before contact.
Besides we are talking about milliseconds. I would think it is more feasible to maintain accelleration through contact than to stop it in a split second.

you are misunderstanding me. I'm referring to a very normal shadow swing where you swing with some acceleration through the contact point. deceleration in the follow thru.

[Povl Carstensen]

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

you are misunderstanding me. I'm referring to a very normal shadow swing where you swing with some acceleration through the contact point. deceleration in the follow thru.

Ok, sorry.

[thecode]

Originally Posted by nightfire700

Well I am not a tennis expert, but common sense will tell me that the exact distance to contact point is not known before hand when you are swinging the racquet. Hence its just not possible to start decelerating or swing such as to reach max velocity at the exact contact point because its not known till you actually hit the ball. Your only option is then to whip hard and continue to accelerate (or add velocity) till you hit the ball. Once the ball is hit and the signal is received by the brain, thats when you will start decelerating and get into the follow through mode and that would be well past the actual contact point and hence its safe to assume that the peak velocity will be a little after the contact point and not at the contact point or before the contact point.

your post makes sense to me. I think some here get mixed up on what the player is doing/trying to do, and mix that up with what actually happens from that effort. Seems a player is trying to hit strongly through the ball, but even with that effort, the racket will not continue to go as fast due to the contact. But it's not like that is anything the player is trying to do and would have no bearing on instruction. Basically that the racket may actually slow a bit at contact might be expected and really just a trivia fact since it has nothing to do with what the player is trying to do, right?

[Povl Carstensen]

Originally Posted by thecode

Basically that the racket may actually slow a bit at contact might be expected and really just a trivia fact since it has nothing to do with what the player is trying to do, right?

Very well put imo.