Does anyone find this odd?

[Woolybugger]

I think the point here is that USTA (and tennis for that matter) has a code of conduct. The conduct displayed by this junior was completely counter to that code, and then to select him to represent the USA in the Junior Davis Cup Camp reeks of hypocrisy.

[chalkflewup]

Originally Posted by Woolybugger

I think the point here is that USTA (and tennis for that matter) has a code of conduct. The conduct displayed by this junior was completely counter to that code, and then to select him to represent the USA in the Junior Davis Cup Camp reeks of hypocrisy.

You don't know the order of events. The kid was selected for the camp in advance of the tournament. The tournament happened a few days before the camp. Do you think the player, the coach/TD, or the parents told anyone about the DQ? While everyone wants to blame the USTA, this should have been handled by the parents and maybe it was.

[tennisforlife77]

Originally Posted by chalkflewup

You are making a general blanket statement that isn't entirely true. A lot of kids skip the back draw. But if this bothers you, then your feelings should apply to any kid that skips the back draw regardless of where they train.

Yes - i am making a blanket statement - If i were a private benefactor supporting the tennis activities of a group of kids i would insist on a standard of conduct that would include sportsmanship and playing the tournament to completion. In this case the USTA is the benefactor and they are clearly imposing only a minimal standard of conduct on the players they are supporting and this kid is not the only example - i think this is what people find offensive. Kids that are playing tennis in their own dime can do whatever they like in terms of behavior but i would personally hold my kid to that same minimum standard. I think we should expect at least that from the USTA.

[tennisforlife77]

Originally Posted by chalkflewup

You don't know the order of events. The kid was selected for the camp in advance of the tournament. The tournament happened a few days before the camp. Do you think the player, the coach/TD, or the parents told anyone about the DQ? While everyone wants to blame the USTA, this should have been handled by the parents and maybe it was.

And at that point the USTA should have withdrawn his invitation to participate. It was a USTA national tournament - one would hope they were paying attention.

[chalkflewup]

Originally Posted by tennisforlife77

And at that point the USTA should have withdrawn his invitation to participate. It was a USTA national tournament - one would hope they were paying attention.

One would hope the parents were paying attention.

[Woolybugger]

Originally Posted by chalkflewup

One would hope the parents were paying attention.

I have no doubt the parents were paying attention, and condoning this behavior. Every parent who's at this level, watched hundreds of kid's matches knows how their kids behave. It is no surprise to them.

If USTA did not know, fair enough. It is then the fault of the parents (and the coach) who want their kid to be the next "superstar" at the expense of everything else.

Sadly, this is becoming too common as the pursuit of tennis "glory" trumps decency.

[tennis5]

Originally Posted by chalkflewup

You don't know the order of events. The kid was selected for the camp in advance of the tournament. The tournament happened a few days before the camp. Do you think the player, the coach/TD, or the parents told anyone about the DQ? While everyone wants to blame the USTA, this should have been handled by the parents and maybe it was.

I started this thread with the dates bolded in red.
The default was on Sunday, January 27th.
The announcement for the Davis Cup Juniors was Thursday, January 31st.

The USTA either knew what transpired at a National Tournament in their own backyard ( Florida) and a lack of respect and decency to your opponent is irrelevant to them or they are completely out of touch with what is going on in junior tennis. I am not sure what is worse.


SUNDAY, JANUARY 27, 2013
Tennis Plaza Cup Finals Set for Monday


THURSDAY, JANUARY 31, 2013
Davis Cup Junior Camp Participants

The USTA frequently conducts Player Development Training Camps during a home Davis Cup tie,
and today they announced the players who are in Jacksonville for the camp for Friday's tie with Brazil.

[tennis5]

Originally Posted by tennisforlife77

Yes - i am making a blanket statement - If i were a private benefactor supporting the tennis activities of a group of kids i would insist on a standard of conduct that would include sportsmanship and playing the tournament to completion. In this case the USTA is the benefactor and they are clearly imposing only a minimal standard of conduct on the players they are supporting and this kid is not the only example - i think this is what people find offensive. Kids that are playing tennis in their own dime can do whatever they like in terms of behavior but i would personally hold my kid to that same minimum standard. I think we should expect at least that from the USTA.

It's odd, many USTA sections now are requiring juniors and parents to sign a letter or contract (before tournament play) that they will show good sportsmanship, and yet the head of the USTA organization seems to ignore this standard.

[andfor]

Originally Posted by tennis5

I started this thread with the dates bolded in red.
The default was on Sunday, January 27th.
The announcement for the Davis Cup Juniors was Thursday, January 31st.

The USTA either knew what transpired at a National Tournament in their own backyard ( Florida) and a lack of respect and decency to your opponent is irrelevant to them or they are completely out of touch with what is going on in junior tennis. I am not sure what is worse.


SUNDAY, JANUARY 27, 2013
Tennis Plaza Cup Finals Set for Monday


THURSDAY, JANUARY 31, 2013
Davis Cup Junior Camp Participants

The USTA frequently conducts Player Development Training Camps during a home Davis Cup tie,
and today they announced the players who are in Jacksonville for the camp for Friday's tie with Brazil.

1/31 was the press release day. The selection was made weeks earlier. Other than the ever reliable news system, do you have evidence to the contrary?

[tennis5]

Originally Posted by andfor

1/31 was the press release day. The selection was made weeks earlier. Other than the ever reliable news system, do you have evidence to the contrary?

Andfor,

In this age of the internet, it is pretty easy to write an email on Monday morning, the 28th,
to the parties that need to be notified that there has been a change.
Zoo Tennis could have been notified the night before she wrote her blog.

It is a mystery to me why you and Chalk are so adamant in defending an organization when they make mistakes?

I would be the first to say that the volunteer system for the USTA is outstanding,
and I have met many wonderful, hardworking, passionate folks who give their time freely for the love for tennis.

But, the management that deals with the juniors seems to be out of touch with the membership.
This is just another example that doesn't sit right.

[andfor]

Believe what you want.

He was punished under the rules and was defaulted from the match. Does every member on the Jr DC team camp have unblemished backgrounds in the last 12 months?

With out clear cut standards, I'm not for subjective judgement especially from the organization you deplore the USTA arbitrarily sanctioning kids. If they can't get it right now, how without additional clear cut guidelines do you think they will get it right in your fantasy world?

Write the committee or chairman who selected the kid and ask them why given these circumstances they picked him.

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by tennis5

It's odd, many USTA sections now are requiring juniors and parents to sign a letter or contract (before tournament play) that they will show good sportsmanship, and yet the head of the USTA organization seems to ignore this standard.

Sportsmanship is for the little people. All joking aside, I can't recall the number of parent/coach "role model" or code of conduct contracts I have had to sign. But when a top player misbehaves, there does seem to be another standard. Socals10's response I think typifies the attitude - its just his passion, cut him some slack. So, if your good, you can curse, and have tantrums, etc and it ok, but if you not winning(aka a loser) you can't. Please lose quietly.

Anyway, I personally am willing to cut the USTA some slack on this particular issue, just cause of the timing. I suppose if they were a highly efficient organization with clear sense of their mission, they would have been able to react to this incident in the short time frame required, but that's asking too much.

I agree with Chalk when he said (I paraphrase) it is wrong paint all the kids in PD(and I recognize this player was not in PD) or USTA supported players with a broad brush and say they are all bad sports who behave bad and skip back draws, etc. But, I think it would be in everyone best interest, USTA, PD, the kids, if being part of PD or being a participant in camps required a higher standard of conduct than making sure not to get more than 9 PPSS.

We don't need more Ryan Harrison's. Maybe USTA needs to get Dr. Fox to spend more time with the kids.

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by andfor

Believe what you want.

He was punished under the rules and was defaulted from the match. Does every member on the Jr DC team camp have unblemished backgrounds in the last 12 months?

With out clear cut standards, I'm not for subjective judgement especially from the organization you deplore the USTA arbitrarily sanctioning kids. If they can't get it right now, how without additional clear cut guidelines do you think they will get it right in your fantasy world?

Write the committee or chairman who selected the kid and ask them why given these circumstances they picked him.

1. Getting defaulted from a match for repeated code violations at a regional is not just a blemish. After being caught twice swearing in English, he intentionally switched to cursing is Spanish cause he thought he could get away with it. That weekend, how many other kids were defaulted from the regionals for repeated code violations? I don't know the answer, but I suspect 'not many' is a close approximation.

2. I agree with you that I think clean cut, objective standards are important. And if the issue here was his admission to the next USTA-sanctioned tournament , than how many PPSS points he had accrued over the past 12 months would come into play. But this is about selection to participate in a camp. Please point me to the clear cut, objective standards that are used to select kids for participation in these camps. An Internet link would be fine, I am sure this is published somewhere on the USTA site. Ok you get my point, never mind. You keep gong back to this but PPSS doesn't apply. The fact is the decision to reward him by inviting him to participate in this camp is an subjective decision made by USTA PD, and they have there own, unpublished non-objective criteria.

3. I suppose if the minimum were not good enough, it would not be the minimum. I believe for everyones benefit, the threshold for being able to participate in an event like this should be higher, not the same as or lower than, the threshold required not to be suspended from USTA competition. The fact is for all we know, he has other suspension points before this and is now actually suspended from USTA competition for a period of time, I don't know. But that in and of itself would not have stopped him, at least by an objective rule, from participating the camp.

4. All the above said, I think the timing of the two events was actually coincident, and I can see how was invited well before hand, and 'uninviting' was not practical.

[andfor]

1. You did not answer my question. Then you answered a question you made up that I did not ask to make yourself feel good.
2. You agree with me, but. But, in my last post I clearly did not go back to the PPSS. "USTA PD, ... they have there own, unpublished non-objective criteria". Ha ha, you really should hear yourself.
3. More bizarre conjecture.
4. You actually agree with me, it's just now you are clearly having difficulty coming out and just saying it.

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by andfor

1. You did not answer my question. Then you answered a question you made up that I did not ask to make yourself feel good.

Believe it or not, I am actually not under any obligation to answer your stupid (rhetorical?) question that nobody without inside information could possibly answer . You posed it, maybe you can answer it ? I answered a question not to make myself feel good, but becuase it was more relevant.

Originally Posted by andfor

2. You agree with me, but. But, in my last post I clearly did not go back to the PPSS. "USTA PD, ... they have there own, unpublished non-objective criteria". Ha ha, you really should hear yourself.

Ha,Ha, Really ? So you didn't go back to PPSS in the last post ? Really ? So the reference to the "last 12 months" had noting to do with the "10 points in the previous 12 months" PPSS standard ? It was just a random, coincidental, reference to 12 months? Your references PPSS in all your previous posts, now you are saying this has nothing to do with that ? So are you walking back all your PPSS stuff ? Seriuosly ?

I believe in the concept that criteria for things like admission to camps should be objective and transparent. Regrettably, they are not. You have repeatedly argued on this thread the PPSS system is that objective standard, but I have shown that there is no relationship between the PPSS system which only governs admission to USTA Sanctioned tournaments and has no bearing on selections for camps.

Originally Posted by andfor

3. More bizarre conjecture.

There's absolutely no conjecture here. It's laying out the facts. I was demonstrating that whether he is or is not subject to suspension under PPSS, that has no relevance as to his eligibility to participating in camp such as this. Again, you have repeatedly argued on this thread that punishment under the PPSS was sufficient and that the player should not be subject to further "punishment".

Originally Posted by andfor

4. You actually agree with me, it's just now you are clearly having difficulty coming out and just saying it.

No, I emphatically do not agree with you on any substantive issue, other than the fact that the timing was unfortunate, and as I have said, I can cut them some slack becuase of that. Otherwise, no we don't agree. Had the incident in question accured a month ago, then I would be less forgiving. But I also suspect there are people inside PD who would see his behavior as a positive, becuase it demonstrates his passion, right ? And we need to cut them slack if they are good and have passion ? Sportsmanship is for the little people.

[andfor]

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

Believe it or not, I am actually not under any obligation to answer your stupid (rhetorical?) question that nobody without inside information could possibly answer . You posed it, maybe you can answer it ? I answered a question not to make myself feel good, but becuase it was more relevant.



Ha,Ha, Really ? So you didn't go back to PPSS in the last post ? Really ? So the reference to the "last 12 months" had noting to do with the "10 points in the previous 12 months" PPSS standard ? It was just a random, coincidental, reference to 12 months? Your references PPSS in all your previous posts, now you are saying this has nothing to do with that ? So are you walking back all your PPSS stuff ? Seriuosly ?

I believe in the concept that criteria for things like admission to camps should be objective and transparent. Regrettably, they are not. You have repeatedly argued on this thread the PPSS system is that objective standard, but I have shown that there is no relationship between the PPSS system which only governs admission to USTA Sanctioned tournaments and has no bearing on selections for camps.




There's absolutely no conjecture here. It's laying out the facts. I was demonstrating that whether he is or is not subject to suspension under PPSS, that has no relevance as to his eligibility to participating in camp such as this. Again, you have repeatedly argued on this thread that punishment under the PPSS was sufficient and that the player should not be subject to further "punishment".




No, I emphatically do not agree with you on any substantive issue, other than the fact that the timing was unfortunate, and as I have said, I can cut them some slack becuase of that. Otherwise, no we don't agree. Had the incident in question accured a month ago, then I would be less forgiving. But I also suspect there are people inside PD who would see his behavior as a positive, becuase it demonstrates his passion, right ? And we need to cut them slack if they are good and have passion ? Sportsmanship is for the little people.

You've made up and imagined a lot here. I won't go through it anymore as I have done so once already. Your hypothetical and imaginary scenarios are funny. You have a great sense of humor.

My 12 mo. reference was to the rest of the kids in the camp. Did any of them act out anywhere, reported or unreported? If you punish this kid over and above the rules would the USTA be levying punishments equally and fairly to all? I don't think they could get it right without clear guidelines and standards to use. Since you are so against how the USTA did not handle this situation, why don't you propose new rules for situations like this?

I will say given this kids behavior, I am for him being further punished. But without a standard to reference to justify suspending him, I am not for the USTA arbitrarily stepping in to do so. As far as I'm concerned he was punished under the rules by being defaulted from the match. In my house I would not have let him go to the camp, but that's on his parents and we don't know what happens behind their doors. Guess the default is not enough for some. Fine, get the USTA to change the rules. Let us know how that goes.

[Chemist]

The Mobile Tennis Center is going to host B18 Spring Championship. They have tougher rules than USTA. Would it be nice to see other tournaments do the same?

FACILITY RULES

The Mobile Tennis Center uses conduct rules above and beyond those enforced by the USTA.
Players participating in tournaments at the facilities identified are required to abide by these facility rules of behavior on and off of the court. These rules also apply to parents, coaches, siblings, and other guests of the players.

The list below indicates the Facility Behavior Rules:

No use of the word "suck" or any form of the word spoken or spelled.
No use of expressions of frustrations with references to deities (i.e. "Oh My God", "Jesus", "Jesus Christ", "Christ", "God") either spoken or spelled.
No use of "freaking", "frigging", or "fricking" or variations of such words either spoken or spelled.
No Smoking anywhere on the premises. Premises includes parking lots, bathrooms, and anywhere within 30 feet of a tennis court.
Verbal rules apply to any langu-age. We have officials on sight that are fluent in many langu-ages.

Anyone found in violation of these rules may be subject to a Code Violation and receive suspension points.