No "Pet The Dog" on 2HBH?

[TheLambsheadrep]

Originally Posted by Bungalo Bill

The instruction is to help teach muscle memory and help the student trust the face of the racquet when it's moving forward before it will make contact with the ball properly so the mind can focus in other things and they won't wrist/turn the racquet face for last minute adjustments before they hit the ball.

When you get better and your swing incorporates the entire motion, it may or may not resemble exactly a racquet face position that is exactly parallel with the ground. It is a teaching aid and is used to teach the brain what to sense at a point in time during a full swing.

Great to hear from you BB! As you can probably tell, this thread was inspired by your forehand learning tip. Do you have an opinion on "is there no PTD on professional backhands?" If there is no PTD, why do you think that is (since it is utilized on the forehand)?

[user92626]

Bill,

Great to see you active in TT again!



Can Bill or anyone elaborate how to produce power with the 2hbh? Where does its power come from?

Do you pull the racket handle around?

(I could hit an average, satisfactorily consistent 2hbh but it lacks power.)

[julian]

Originally Posted by WildVolley

Now, I'm not sure what video I was watching. Watching some of the linked videos above, I'm not seeing it at all. So perhaps it was a one-off thing.

So, I'll say today that I don't see the elbow extension in the transition, though Djokovic does straighten his arms a little bit as he swings to hit the ball.

Could you look into post #80?
Did the author meant "parallel with the ground" or "PERPENDICULAR to the ground"?
Just checking

[WildVolley]

Originally Posted by julian

Could you look into post #80?
Did the author meant "parallel with the ground" or "PERPENDICULAR to the ground"?
Just checking

Julian, just saw this message.

BB means parallel to the ground. But he's specifically talking about the "pat-the-dog" motion of the swing. The distinctive feature of the "pat-the-dog" is that the face tends to turn almost parallel and actually parallel with the ground during some swings. I always understood that was what BB meant, you actually turn the palm of your hand down as though you were patting a large dog on the back during the transition. From this definition, Djokovic definitely doesn't do anything like this with his 2hbh.

The face will then tend to open up to a less-closed position at contact during the forward swing.

I think we could also consider some of the outward elbow extension as being something similar, even if it isn't pat the dog. I'm specifically thinking of someone like Del Potro, who doesn't tend to pat-the-dog, but seems to extend the arm out during the transition phase.

Have you seen the latest blog post by SpeedMaster? It is worth checking out.

[Bungalo Bill]

Originally Posted by TheLambsheadrep

Great to hear from you BB! As you can probably tell, this thread was inspired by your forehand learning tip. Do you have an opinion on "is there no PTD on professional backhands?" If there is no PTD, why do you think that is (since it is utilized on the forehand)?

I do use PTD for the twohanded backhand when developing it. However, my goal isn't to make it perfectly parallel when allowing the player to swing freely. I use PTD on both sides to teach trust, eliminate last minute wrist movement, and to teach brushing up the backside of the ball at contact.

I use it to simply to teach the mind how the racquet/hands should feel like when the player is swinging the racquet when it reaches that position. If I can get the player to make his adjustments further back in the swing motion rather then before contact I can progress in teaching the player to hit a cleaner ball with power and spin. This is really all I use PTD for.

[Bungalo Bill]

Originally Posted by user92626

Bill,

Great to see you active in TT again!



Can Bill or anyone elaborate how to produce power with the 2hbh? Where does its power come from?

Do you pull the racket handle around?

(I could hit an average, satisfactorily consistent 2hbh but it lacks power.)

Your legs and shoulder rotation. Relax the arms/hands. Dominate hand should slightly push through the ball. Bottom-hand is relaxed and its placement is mainly for racquet face stability. It should not fight the other hand. Meet the ball slightly in front of you. Don't crossover with your front foot blocking your hips from rotating.

[Mahboob Khan]

With the double handed backhand it's almost fatal to use "closed stance" because this creates excessive twist on the lower back. The open stance for cross court, and square stance for down the line shots, are the best stances to go with the 2-handed BH.

I used to have my daughter (RH player) hit lefty forehands to train her left hand also and because of this her 2-handed BH is the best shot.

[user92626]

Originally Posted by Bungalo Bill

Your legs and shoulder rotation. Relax the arms/hands. Dominate hand should slightly push through the ball. Bottom-hand is relaxed and its placement is mainly for racquet face stability. It should not fight the other hand. Meet the ball slightly in front of you. Don't crossover with your front foot blocking your hips from rotating.

Hi Bill,

Thank you so much.

I understand everything you wrote, except your terms of "dominate hand" and "bottom-hand". Which one is which? I'm lefty so my 2hbh hits the shot on the right side of the body!

[Bungalo Bill]

Originally Posted by user92626

Hi Bill,

Thank you so much.

I understand everything you wrote, except your terms of "dominate hand" and "bottom-hand". Which one is which? I'm lefty so my 2hbh hits the shot on the right side of the body!

Ahhh, sorry. I meant TOP-HAND (instead of dominate) and bottom-hand...for you your dominate hand (left hand) is the bottom hand.

[BridgetJones]

Originally Posted by julian

I have some observations about Nadal and Petrova.
Petrova
I will post time permting.
Petrova was coached by Mohammed Seif,her parents and Vladimir Platenik
I saw some videos at tennisplayer.net
A steep angle of a face of a racket
Takeback is NOT high-NOT sure whether it was related to a PARTICULAR bounce of a ball
Takeback NOT compact (at least in cases I saw)
Nadal

Do you suggest a big takeback for the shot? I am wondering if that would improve power.

[julian]

Originally Posted by WildVolley

Julian, just saw this message.

BB means parallel to the ground. But he's specifically talking about the "pat-the-dog" motion of the swing. The distinctive feature of the "pat-the-dog" is that the face tends to turn almost parallel and actually parallel with the ground during some swings. I always understood that was what BB meant, you actually turn the palm of your hand down as though you were patting a large dog on the back during the transition. From this definition, Djokovic definitely doesn't do anything like this with his 2hbh.

The face will then tend to open up to a less-closed position at contact during the forward swing.

I think we could also consider some of the outward elbow extension as being something similar, even if it isn't pat the dog. I'm specifically thinking of someone like Del Potro, who doesn't tend to pat-the-dog, but seems to extend the arm out during the transition phase.

Have you seen the latest blog post by SpeedMaster? It is worth checking out.

The E-mail address of the author is made more or less "public

[Nostradamus]

not sure about petting the dog but I know that CHOP slice by Federer does NOT work.

[julian]

Originally Posted by BridgetJones

Do you suggest a big takeback for the shot? I am wondering if that would improve power.

I like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlmhJTUFEfM
I try to teach as close to this link as possible
I do NOT know whether it is a "big takeback"
I would say it is "compact" or "SMALLER".
I think it improves ssc
I will try to expand a bit later
PS Just to be specific:
I am talking about baseline stroke ONLY (no return of serve)
I am talking about DOUBLE HANDED BACKHAND ONLY

[julian]

Originally Posted by BridgetJones

Do you suggest a big takeback for the shot? I am wondering if that would improve power.

Which level are we talking about?

[julian]

Ash,

There is a latest BLOG-
Friday, February 15, 2013
A Roadmap to a Hall-of-Fame Forehand - Part 9: An Anatomical Comparison of the Federer and Djokovic Forehands

The blog describes Djokovic
and HIS RIGHT elbow flexion.
I am trying to see how to "compare" a forehand by Djokovic (say a LEFTY forehand)
with his double handed backhand
Do "we" have common "building blocks",etc,etc
between FOREHAND and BACKHAND?

WildVolley brought an issue of elbow extension (probably elbow FLEXION in the case of Djokovic) for DOUBLE HANDED BACKHAND.
The next issue is an ANGLE of a face of a racket at contact for a DOUBLE HANDED BACKHAND.
It is probably a dead horse already (sorry animal lovers).


regards,
Julian

[WildVolley]

Originally Posted by julian

Ash,

There is a latest BLOG-
Friday, February 15, 2013
A Roadmap to a Hall-of-Fame Forehand - Part 9: An Anatomical Comparison of the Federer and Djokovic Forehands

The blog describes Djokovic
and HIS RIGHT elbow flexion.
I am trying to see how to "compare" a forehand by Djokovic (say a LEFTY forehand)
with his double handed backhand
Do "we" have common "building blocks",etc,etc
between FOREHAND and BACKHAND?

WildVolley brought an issue of elbow extension (probably elbow FLEXION in the case of Djokovic) for DOUBLE HANDED BACKHAND.
The next issue is an ANGLE of a face of a racket at contact for a DOUBLE HANDED BACKHAND.
It is probably a dead horse already (sorry animal lovers).


regards,
Julian

Julian,

Looking at the video of Djokovic hitting backhands that you've cited:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlmhJTUFEfM

I believe I see a slight amount of elbow extension into that shot (I'm talking about Djokovic's left arm). Watch it and note whether his left arm straightens from the end of the takeback to hitting the ball. I believe he is marginally extending the elbow (straightening the arm) into the 2hbh. If anything, I believe he hits it with a straighter arm than he does with his fh.

Watching these videos, most 2hbh players have much less of a loop takeback on the bh-side as compared to the fh-side. Especially for players who hit a fh with a fairly straight arm (Nadal, Federer, Verdasco) the arm is bent more in the takeback and therefore there has to be straightening (elbow extension) prior to the shot. My interest in this extension is whether it is also helping some sort of reflex rather than just extending the arm straighter and perhaps allowing a greater arc on the swing and thereby easier pace and spin.

[julian]

Originally Posted by WildVolley

Julian,

Looking at the video of Djokovic hitting backhands that you've cited:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlmhJTUFEfM

I believe I see a slight amount of elbow extension into that shot (I'm talking about Djokovic's left arm). Watch it and note whether his left arm straightens from the end of the takeback to hitting the ball. I believe he is marginally extending the elbow (straightening the arm) into the 2hbh. If anything, I believe he hits it with a straighter arm than he does with his fh.

Watching these videos, most 2hbh players have much less of a loop takeback on the bh-side as compared to the fh-side. Especially for players who hit a fh with a fairly straight arm (Nadal, Federer, Verdasco) the arm is bent more in the takeback and therefore there has to be straightening (elbow extension) prior to the shot. My interest in this extension is whether it is also helping some sort of reflex rather than just extending the arm straighter and perhaps allowing a greater arc on the swing and thereby easier pace and spin.

WildVolley,
I have seen couple of videos at tennsplayer.net
Those videos are 250 fps.
They show even more ELBOW FLEXION (and probably ELBOW EXTENSION) than the link above.
The side views are FROM THE RIGHT,not from the left
Interestingly enough REAR VIEWS and CENTER VIEWS are of some usefulness.
We are entering the very old conversation STRAIGHT vs BENT somehow (for the left hand)
Another issue "left" is the return of serve
(supposedly reaching 110 MPH).
http://www.tennisicoach.com/node/3387 shows stills for Ivanovic with a SIGNIFICANT ELBOW FLEXION
regards,
Julian
PS
I understand Ash has an access to other 3 videos ( which he did NOT specify)
I do NOT have an access to tennisone any more so I cannot compare with videos there
PS #2 Tomorrow/Monday I will be away from this forum till 4:30 EST
PS #3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPBM-hE1Dhw
around 0:08/0:12 shows a moment when the LEFT HAND is straight
One has to stop a video and next use a right arrow of a laptop

[julian]

Originally Posted by WildVolley

Julian,

Looking at the video of Djokovic hitting backhands that you've cited:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlmhJTUFEfM

I believe I see a slight amount of elbow extension into that shot (I'm talking about Djokovic's left arm). Watch it and note whether his left arm straightens from the end of the takeback to hitting the ball. I believe he is marginally extending the elbow (straightening the arm) into the 2hbh. If anything, I believe he hits it with a straighter arm than he does with his fh.

Watching these videos, most 2hbh players have much less of a loop takeback on the bh-side as compared to the fh-side. Especially for players who hit a fh with a fairly straight arm (Nadal, Federer, Verdasco) the arm is bent more in the takeback and therefore there has to be straightening (elbow extension) prior to the shot. My interest in this extension is whether it is also helping some sort of reflex rather than just extending the arm straighter and perhaps allowing a greater arc on the swing and thereby easier pace and spin.

I do NOT understand the phrase "REFLEX"

[WildVolley]

Originally Posted by julian

I do NOT understand the phrase "REFLEX"

My understanding is that a reflex motion is one that occurs without nerve signals progressing all the way to the brain and then being sent back to the muscles. A reflex action will cause a muscle to tighten (for instance) without the signal having to be processed by the brain. For example, when you jump, say long jumping, the leg will take a huge amount of weight for a very brief instance and if done properly cause the muscles to contract very quickly due to reflex.

I believe the claim of a stretch-shortening cycle in some strokes, whereby a muscle is stretched and then rapidly contracts against the stretch is an example of a reflex action.

So in the context of a forehand, the question is whether the straightening of the arm is just to put the arm in a proper position at contact, or whether it is causing some muscles, say forearm, to be stretched and fire quite rapidly around contact.

[julian]

Originally Posted by WildVolley

My understanding is that a reflex motion is one that occurs without nerve signals progressing all the way to the brain and then being sent back to the muscles. A reflex action will cause a muscle to tighten (for instance) without the signal having to be processed by the brain. For example, when you jump, say long jumping, the leg will take a huge amount of weight for a very brief instance and if done properly cause the muscles to contract very quickly due to reflex.

I believe the claim of a stretch-shortening cycle in some strokes, whereby a muscle is stretched and then rapidly contracts against the stretch is an example of a reflex action.

So in the context of a forehand, the question is whether the straightening of the arm is just to put the arm in a proper position at contact, or whether it is causing some muscles, say forearm, to be stretched and fire quite rapidly around contact.

WildVolley,
we will get to SSC's in a moment
We have AT LEAST TWO SSC's for forehand
1.SSC of shoulder rotator cuff muscles of a RIGHT HAND.
2.SSC of forearm muscles of a RIGHT HAND.
It is possible that the first SSC overlaps with the second SSC.
Possibly SSC related to muscles of legs is used as well to confuse everybody.
(legs are early in the kinetic chain)
The blog claims that Djokovic is NOT using the first one correctly/efficiently FOR FOREHAND-please see the corresponding parts
of the blog.
Obviously one can say that we have BOTH SSC for the DOUBLE HANDED BACKHAND
or at LEAST THE SECOND ONE if Djokovic uses his LEFTY FOREHAND.
The next question is the length of SSC-probably around 40 milliseconds.