The Doping Thread

[dafinch]

Originally Posted by zagor

That's the thing, he didn't, most of his retirements were not in BO5 matches that went the distance (as Sid said).

Don't confuse him with facts, they make his head hurt...

[dafinch]

Originally Posted by pug

All these doping accusations are just gossip and foder for people to rip the players they dont like. No proof, no story. All these "facts " remind me of Ralph Wiggum :

Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies and then the baby looked at me.

By any chance, are you a fan of Marion Jones and/or Lance Armstrong?

[steenkash]

The usual suspects for doping are either Nadal or Djocovic, however why does your highness Rodger getaway with claims? He's a 31 year old man with a recurring back problem, yet manages to sustain high level of tennis against top athletes, and against the so called offenders. So I assume he must be doping too, right?

[YouCantBeSerious]

Originally Posted by steenkash

The usual suspects for doping are either Nadal or Djocovic, however why does your highness Rodger getaway with claims? He's a 31 year old man with a recurring back problem, yet manages to sustain high level of tennis against top athletes, and against the so called offenders. So I assume he must be doping too, right?

Because Fed worshippers know that gods don't need to dope. The *are* dope.

[Grigollif1]

As I have gone deeper into this issue over the years at first, my main inclination was just that testing should be done the best way possible. I also used to agree with total prohibition, now I am more skeptical specially about the total prohibition part. Professional athletes are from from regular people or even amateurs when it comes to what is expected of their bodies.

To believe that a professional athlete, a tennis player for example, can train 4-6 hours a day plus off court work, play 4 hours plus matches, recover to play day in and day for weeks in a 10 months season, not get seriously injured and do all that on bread and water is a bit of an illusion to ask. And Tennis is not even one of the most physical sports out there.

If you look into some of the main PEDS used, they haven't change much over the decades: HGH, Steroids (basic Male hormone in synthetic form), insulin and EPO. These are all substances naturally produced and found in the body, these are all substances that are prescribed legitimately for people under certain conditions, with minimal side effects when done correctly. The argument is that Professional athletes are like regular people and should not be able to use them. Which is not correct in my view, not in what is expected of their bodies.

To know that there are regular Joe's in the gym around the corner who used them just to look good, to expect that professional athletes who lived of their body to totally stay away from the science of substances that can greatly aid and help them to train better, recover faster and that if used correctly, under professional supervision do not show to have major side effects is a tall order to ask.

I am not saying for allowing everything, certainly there are substances to stay away from, but to prohibit everything just doesn't work, look at recreational drugs which has been tried much harder. And the Ped's testing has not work as a serious deterant, is hard to imagine will ever be truly efficient, unless several hundreds of millions are invested and a truly strong independent party such as the government can get involved. That is what it took to bring Lance forward.

So I believe a balance approach needs to be reach in an openly and honest way. The thing right now is that there is a political correct narrative for the lay man public to believe, that all Peds are bad and that sport's truly do their best to keep everyone clean, wink, wink, and that Tennis is a quite clean sport aside from a few exceptions. While most insiders or people who look deep into this now to be a charade. This needs to truly end, the issue needs to be brought to light, so the best solutions can be found. Not this 2 version way, one for the public and another for insiders.

[dafinch]

Originally Posted by YouCantBeSerious

I was a fan of Lance Armstrong before it was proven he doped. Not anymore. If I accuse you of murdering someone, does that make you a murderer?

First of all, I didn't ask you, I asked him. Secondly, as I'm sure will come as no surprise to you, I don't care what you think. And thirdly, your analogy is silly: I neither said, nor implied, that if one was a fan of a person ultimately found to have juiced, that makes one a juicer. The point, which, I mistakenly though was obvious, was we have been down this head-in-the-sand despite considerable circumstantial evidence before, in the aforementioned cases, so the "no proof, no story" line is not only unimpressive, it's wrong: he may WISH there is no story, but wishing doesn't make it so.

[YouCantBeSerious]

Originally Posted by dafinch

First of all, I didn't ask you, I asked him. Secondly, as I'm sure will come as no surprise to you, I don't care what you think. And thirdly, your analogy is silly: I neither said, nor implied, that if one was a fan of a person ultimately found to have juiced, that makes one a juicer. The point, which, I mistakenly though was obvious, was we have been down this head-in-the-sand despite considerable circumstantial evidence before, in the aforementioned cases, so the "no proof, no story" line is not only unimpressive, it's wrong: he may WISH there is no story, but wishing doesn't make it so.

OK, finchy boy. What evidence is there against Nadal? Anything even remotely similar to what was there with Armstrong, please? Hint: Having muscles is not enough. Testosterone will do that to you along with heavy exercise and the right genes.

Crickets? I thought so.

[jrs]

Originally Posted by YouCantBeSerious

I was a fan of Lance Armstrong before it was proven he doped. Not anymore. If I accuse you of murdering someone, does that make you a murderer?

He was in a sport where most of the top riders/teams were doping! In that situation it was a level playing field. But he should not have come out and lied and accused others.
I believe there was a report stating if you go back through the Tour De France - the person who was never caught doping finished in 29th place.

[Bjorn99]

Originally Posted by YouCantBeSerious

Organic steroids make you impervious to disease and aging? I call BS on that, sir. Now, if you please park your wagon behind that there Saloon, I'll come right over and purchase some of your snake oil.

Steroid use increase a man's chance of getting prostate cancer, for example. And that's one type of cancer about 90% men end up having throughout their lifetime, whether detected or undetected.

U have no idea of what you are talking about. Seriously, so I really don't want to get into it with you. Organic steroids do NOT cause prostrate cancer, they in fact prevent it, and every other form of cancer.

They are much, much more expensive than pharmaceutical steroids, and thus all the information you are referring to, refers to synthetics. Organics? Truly the edge, the fountain of youth. And I in fact am on the same blend as five Hollywood actors that keep looking better with age. Whilst the other actors who are unaware of its existence get older and fatter.

If the truth came out about the high end organic stuff, every citizen would want one, and what government wants a bunch of youthful codgers running around collecting old age pension.

The answer? None that I am aware of. So hang out a few token athletes out to dry like Lance, don't test the rest and keep it all a big secret.

You want cancer? And the testosterone levels of an eighty year old at 30? Carry a smart phone around for more than a half hour a day. That is certain leukemia and cancer. Lets call them DUMBPHONES. Cause that is what they are, if you know what they deliver.

[Bartelby]

Pistorius had banned steroids in his house, although that's now the least of his worries.

[mellowyellow]

YouCantBeSerious
Professional



Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Land of the Free Buffet
Posts: 982


""OK, finchy boy. What evidence is there against Nadal? Anything even remotely similar to what was there with Armstrong, please? Hint: Having muscles is not enough. Testosterone will do that to you along with heavy exercise and the right genes.

Crickets? I thought so.""
__________________
Forget it, Jake. It's GOATtown.
What a time for GOATs to come out of retirement! First Nadal and now Sentinel!


As I remember the French media had said he was implicated when the entire Puerto scandal broke, that seems VERY Lance like to me. The Spanish Govt has blocked any effort to uncover who those people are/were. Why did Nadal not follow through with his law suit? Simple answer is the evidence locked away by the Spanish govt would have to be made public to clear his name. Thats why no follow through, thats why no pressure with a law suit, the French made no public apology for "defamation" on Nadal regarding PED use and Puerto involvement. The ball was in his court and he is still holding it.

[vernonbc]

Originally Posted by Bartelby

Pistorius had banned steroids in his house, although that's now the least of his worries.

Really???? I haven't been reading the media mania on this topic. Is that info from a legitimate source or is it just somebody's speculation?

[gsharma]

Originally Posted by Bjorn99

U have no idea of what you are talking about. Seriously, so I really don't want to get into it with you. Organic steroids do NOT cause prostrate cancer, they in fact prevent it, and every other form of cancer.

They are much, much more expensive than pharmaceutical steroids, and thus all the information you are referring to, refers to synthetics. Organics? Truly the edge, the fountain of youth. And I in fact am on the same blend as five Hollywood actors that keep looking better with age. Whilst the other actors who are unaware of its existence get older and fatter.

If the truth came out about the high end organic stuff, every citizen would want one, and what government wants a bunch of youthful codgers running around collecting old age pension.

The answer? None that I am aware of. So hang out a few token athletes out to dry like Lance, don't test the rest and keep it all a big secret.

You want cancer? And the testosterone levels of an eighty year old at 30? Carry a smart phone around for more than a half hour a day. That is certain leukemia and cancer. Lets call them DUMBPHONES. Cause that is what they are, if you know what they deliver.

You must be talking about synthetic testosterone. That stuff doesn't stay in your body that long. As for cellphones causing leukemia, what are your sources? The most prevalent theory for cellphones causing cancer is through heat causing DNA/other changes when the phone is in active use and pressed against your skin.

[pug]

Originally Posted by dafinch

By any chance, are you a fan of Marion Jones and/or Lance Armstrong?

No I am not. The difference between Jones / Armstrong and the tennis players named here is that it has been proven that Jones /Armstrong cheated. When it has been proven that any of these people cheated, then by all means bring on the hate. Until then it is baseless speculation no better than a witch hunt.

[vernonbc]

Originally Posted by mellowyellow

As I remember the French media had said he was implicated when the entire Puerto scandal broke, that seems VERY Lance like to me. The Spanish Govt has blocked any effort to uncover who those people are/were. Why did Nadal not follow through with his law suit? Simple answer is the evidence locked away by the Spanish govt would have to be made public to clear his name. Thats why no follow through, thats why no pressure with a law suit, the French made no public apology for "defamation" on Nadal regarding PED use and Puerto involvement. The ball was in his court and he is still holding it.

Oh my lord. You've really ventured into the looney tunes zone now.

Your memory is very selective. The French media is hardly an authoritative source. They speculated he was involved? There are still people who speculate that the earth is flat.

"Lance like" is when multiple people come forward and claim they have solid first hand knowledge of Lance doing drugs. There has never ever been a hint of any teammate or any person claiming they have knowledge of Rafa doing drugs of any sort. The only remote implication is a Belgian guy who has a reputation for being a sore misfit questioning how Rafa could play two five set matches in a slam.

The Spanish government has NOT blocked efforts to uncover who was involved. They have investigated and are currently prosecuting the doctor involved. Spain is bidding for the 2020 Olympics and have gone to extraordinary lengths to clean up any supposed drug problems in order to remove the suspicions about their drug program enforcement. WADA has praised them for their efforts and they have met all IOC requirements. Spanish authorities released a statement years ago that Rafa was NOT on any list they uncovered in the Puerto investigation.

What Rafa lawsuit? Are you talking about taking action against the French press for publishing those ridiculous stories from Noah? Rafa never ever threatened a lawsuit. He tried to convince people to ignore the nonsense and not give the sh!t disturbers any publicity. The Spanish Olympic organization threatened a lawsuit because they felt the whole Spanish athletic community had been impugned but I must admit I don't know if they ever followed through with that threat or if they did where it stands now.

There is NO evidence locked away implicating Rafa in any drug scandal. There is only ridiculous garbage like you are spewing which has absolutely no basis in fact. You disgust me with your ugly gossip and rumors.

[snowpuppy]

Lets take a who should be scrutinize base on fishiness as provided by one of the article links on the original post

• Skip the Olympics (which has much stricter drug testing) in your prime for any dubious reason and you're on the list.
Nadal

• Enjoy your best season in years in your late 30s, four or five years after your last "best season," and you're on the list.
Fed while not having a best season did win a major at his "grandfather" age

• If you're a skinny dude who miraculously managed to add 20 pounds of muscle to your scarecrow frame, you're on the list.
None I think think of at the moment

• If you chopped down the recovery time of a debilitating injury to something that just didn't seem possible a year ago, you're on the list.
None I think think of at the moment

• If you were really good and really ripped at a really young age, and now your body is breaking down much sooner than it should be breaking down, you're on the list.
Nadal?

• If you're exhibiting a level of superhuman endurance that has little correlation to the endurance of any of your competitors, you're on the list.
Novak

Even though i'm a fed fan, i'll throw out one more
- Competing highly in an dubious era (a la lance armstrong)
Fed, Murray, Nadal, Novak

While it does seem like half the posts are finger pointing at their favorite players competition, the more doubts we can cast on the sport means more pressure from the fan base. And hopefully with more pressure from fans, the sporting organization will do something about this.

[Bjorn99]

Originally Posted by gsharma

You must be talking about synthetic testosterone. That stuff doesn't stay in your body that long. As for cellphones causing leukemia, what are your sources? The most prevalent theory for cellphones causing cancer is through heat causing DNA/other changes when the phone is in active use and pressed against your skin.

Evidence for cellphone usage destroying our bodies? There is literally mountains of independent research. But if you go to the first 100 pages of Google or Wikipedia, you will of course bump into the very smart agenda based bot software programs that assure you that there is little to no evidence.

Think outside of the box/pyramid.

[YouCantBeSerious]

Originally Posted by Bjorn99

U have no idea of what you are talking about. Seriously, so I really don't want to get into it with you. Organic steroids do NOT cause prostrate cancer, they in fact prevent it, and every other form of cancer.

They are much, much more expensive than pharmaceutical steroids, and thus all the information you are referring to, refers to synthetics. Organics? Truly the edge, the fountain of youth. And I in fact am on the same blend as five Hollywood actors that keep looking better with age. Whilst the other actors who are unaware of its existence get older and fatter.

If the truth came out about the high end organic stuff, every citizen would want one, and what government wants a bunch of youthful codgers running around collecting old age pension.

The answer? None that I am aware of. So hang out a few token athletes out to dry like Lance, don't test the rest and keep it all a big secret.

You want cancer? And the testosterone levels of an eighty year old at 30? Carry a smart phone around for more than a half hour a day. That is certain leukemia and cancer. Lets call them DUMBPHONES. Cause that is what they are, if you know what they deliver.

I feel sorry for you. There is never a free lunch with regards to health. Nobody lives forever. Some diseases (cancer is a very good example) are simply the product of cummulative mutations at the DNA level, and will take place if given enough time. A hormone will not help you escape cancer forever.

You might look younger for a while taking certain hormones, but eventually age will catch up with you. Your knowledge of human physiology is appalling. You need to understand what a telomere is and what does it mean that during cellular replication there is an intrinsic degradation that is unstoppable regardless of whatever hormones you are taking. There is a built in cellular clock that can't be stopped. Does that sink in with you?

What's more important, even if it were possible to live forever, it would be a crime to do so. Until humans as a race develop economic means of interstellar travel and terraforming of alien planets, the Earth is all we have and we need to make room for new people. The easiest way to kill the human race (ironically) would be to discover the fountain of youth and make it public.

What you need to do is realize that you are a human being created by God with a finite earthly life, and invest on that part of you that is truly immortal.

[YouCantBeSerious]

Originally Posted by mellowyellow

As I remember the French media had said he was implicated when the entire Puerto scandal broke, that seems VERY Lance like to me. The Spanish Govt has blocked any effort to uncover who those people are/were. Why did Nadal not follow through with his law suit? Simple answer is the evidence locked away by the Spanish govt would have to be made public to clear his name. Thats why no follow through, thats why no pressure with a law suit, the French made no public apology for "defamation" on Nadal regarding PED use and Puerto involvement. The ball was in his court and he is still holding it.

The French media? You trust the French media? That's like trusting a French used car salesman. Not only it's a car salesman, it's a French one!

The French are so jealous of Spanish athletic achievement that they have not problem speaking out of their arse to implicate Spanish sportsmen in any scandal they can think of. Where is the evidence, yellow belly man?

[YouCantBeSerious]

Originally Posted by vernonbc

There is NO evidence locked away implicating Rafa in any drug scandal. There is only ridiculous garbage like you are spewing which has absolutely no basis in fact. You disgust me with your ugly gossip and rumors.

This sums it up really well, thank you vernonbc. Well said.