Stuck playing in a flex league I'm too good for.....

[Buford T Justice]

Originally Posted by omega4

So perhaps the best solution is to set a range limit as to how high a level a lower level person can compete against.

That is exactly what the UT rating system does within a given level.

The range to "stay put" in your current level is a year end rating of between -5.4 and +5.4. (In the smaller markets, this range to "stay put" is -6.4 to +6.4).

[Buford T Justice]

Originally Posted by spot

I haven't EVER seen someone try and make sure they avoided a bump up.

Me either. Everyone wants to move up IMO. The sandbagging stuff is few and far between.

Of course, eventually, ones goal is no longer to keep moving up....but to just be able to stay put! Thats my target going forward as I suspect I have reached my top level where I can be be reliably competitive in UT.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Buford T Justice

That is exactly what the UT rating system does within a given level.

The range to "stay put" in your current level is a year end rating of between -5.4 and +5.4. (In the smaller markets, this range to "stay put" is -6.4 to +6.4).

And there is a range where you have the option to move up or move down as well. You just have to earn that option through results on the court and not from just wishing you were higher.

[Buford T Justice]

Originally Posted by spot

And there is a range where you have the option to move up or move down as well. You just have to earn that option through results on the court and not from just wishing you were higher.

Yes, exactly.

Very simply laid on on UTs website----

Regular Season
Move Up Requirements •If your rating is -5.4 to +5.4 you remain at your current level.
•If your rating is +5.5 to +9.9 you move up 1 level.
•If your rating is +10.0 or greater you move up 2 levels.
Move Down Requirements•If your rating is -5.5 to -9.9 you move down 1 level.
•If your rating is -10.0 or lower you move down 2 levels.
Move Down Exceptions•If you moved up to a new skill level in your last season of play and finished with a -5.5 rating or lower, you will remain at your current skill level. This rule is designed to allow your game to to adjust to the higher level of play.
•If you finished the season with a -5.5 rating or lower, but in the season prior earned a rating of -4.0 or higher, you will remain at your current level for one more season.


Playoff Move Up Requirements

If you advance to the following playoff rounds you will be moved up to the next highest skill level regardless of your end of season rating.
•Draw of 2 - champion moves up
•Draw of 4 - champion moves up
•Draw of 8 - champion moves up
•Draw of 16 - finalist and champion move up
•Draw of 32 - finalist and champion move up
•Draw of 64 - semi-finalist, finalist and champion move up
•Draw of 128 - semi-finalist, finalist and champion move up

[omega4]

Originally Posted by Buford T Justice

Me either. Everyone wants to move up IMO. The sandbagging stuff is few and far between.

Of course, eventually, ones goal is no longer to keep moving up....but to just be able to stay put! Thats my target going forward as I suspect I have reached my top level where I can be be reliably competitive in UT.

But ultimately, where you go (up or down) is a direct result of your performance on court (sandbagging or not), right?

Are attitudes about moving up to higher levels different because Ultimate is all singles, whereas the leagues are a combination of singles and doubles (or just doubles only)? Both Ultimate and the leagues have playoffs, right?

[Buford T Justice]

Originally Posted by omega4

But ultimately, where you go (up or down) is a direct result of your performance on court (sandbagging or not), right?

Yes.

But, you cant sandbag too much in UT as if you "manage" your season rating, if you then turn on the jets in the playoffs, you will get bumped.

Are attitudes about moving up to higher levels different because Ultimate is all singles, where as the leagues are a combination of singles and doubles (or just doubles only)? Both Ultimate and the leagues have playoffs, right?

UT is singles and doubles. And, yes UT has playoffs.

[OrangePower]

Originally Posted by spot

If someone has 6 grueling 3 set matches that they win then they are at the right level because every match is competitive. For me the time someone should be moving up is when they are starting to have non-competitive matches at the level where they are at. You have 4 grueling 3 setters and also win a couple other matches 6-2 6-2 then the system does move you up which I think is completely fair.

People here act like its a virtue to want to play better players but ignore people in the higher league who also want to play better players. Once you let people play against higher level players just because they wish they could have that challenge then the system becomes worse for everyone else. Go out and show you don't belong at that level. If you aren't getting any straight set victories at your current level you obviously have a lot you can still learn there.

Completely agree with everything you said.

Question is what to do with players who have legitimate reason to believe that they are significantly better than where the league thinks they belong, and how to determine what is their true competitive level.

As an extreme example, if a player recently out of DI tennis wants to play, we're obviously not going to ask them to 'prove' their level by starting them out at a low level. Instead, we would take their tennis history into account. Likewise, the OP has a history at a higher level (3.5), so it seems that should be taken into consideration.

Disclaimer: I know nothing about Ultimate or other leagues outside of USTA, so I'm assuming levels between leagues are roughly equal.

[spot]

Question is what to do with players who have legitimate reason to believe that they are significantly better than where the league thinks they belong, and how to determine what is their true competitive level.

You have a lot of latitude to set your first level you play at. You are supposed to play a "verifier" to make sure that you are at the right level but if you can't make the schedule work then I believe you can just sign up wherever you wish. In order to try and stop people from self rating at the bottom of their level then they ahve a rule where if your rating is too high then you are ineligible for playoffs.

If the OP were playing Ultimate tennis for the first time then he could rate at 3.5 with no problems. Because he has already played in the league then the system is set up such that he would have to have a more dominant season in order to move up rather than just telling them that he improved over the winter.

[Brian11785]

FYI, my last time playing 3.0 singles in Ultimate.



This could be its own thread.
- All the bagels I served, including the first set in the one match I lost.
- The third set choke in the playoffs, after being up 4-1.

[Buford T Justice]

Originally Posted by OrangePower

Completely agree with everything you said.

Question is what to do with players who have legitimate reason to believe that they are significantly better than where the league thinks they belong, and how to determine what is their true competitive level.

As an extreme example, if a player recently out of DI tennis wants to play, we're obviously not going to ask them to 'prove' their level by starting them out at a low level. Instead, we would take their tennis history into account. Likewise, the OP has a history at a higher level (3.5), so it seems that should be taken into consideration.

Disclaimer: I know nothing about Ultimate or other leagues outside of USTA, so I'm assuming levels between leagues are roughly equal.

I am getting good at the cut and pastes!

From UT website-----

Ultimate Tennis Skill Levels
•2.5 Beginner - low, less than one year of play
•3.0- Beginner - mid
•3.0 Beginner - high
•3.5- Intermediate - low
•3.5 Intermediate - mid
•4.0- Intermediate - high
•4.0 Advanced - low
•4.5- Advanced - mid
•4.5 Advanced - high
•5.0 Tournament level - low
•5.5 Tournament level - high
•6.0- Division 2-3 college level
•6.0 Division 1 college level or national ranking

New League cities will begin with core skill levels and then expand to include "minus" levels shown above.

Also, as far as tennis history goes---


USTA Requirements

If you are a new member you may not rate yourself at a level below your USTA rating. You must select a level at or above your USTA level in your first season. Players found playing below their USTA level are subject to being removed anytime during the regular season or the playoffs. When found, the Ultimate Tennis office will review the case and make a ruling.

So, if someone out of a D1 school joins the league, if they dont register at 6.0 and are caught, they will be kicked out.

[Buford T Justice]

Originally Posted by Brian11785

This could be its own thread.
- All the bagels I served, including the first set in the one match I lost.
- The third set choke in the playoffs, after being up 4-1.

Oh man....I could join you in that thread.

In the reverse, I cant tell you how many times Ive come out slow and lost the first set badly, only to win the next two more easily. I always ask myself, "why didnt you just do what you did in the last two sets starting one set earlier?" LOL

Of course, Ive also had some where Ive come out slow in the first set....and just stayed that way

[Brian11785]

Originally Posted by Buford T Justice

Oh man....I could join you in that thread.

In the reverse, I cant tell you how many times Ive come out slow and lost the first set badly, only to win the next two more easily. I always ask myself, "why didnt you just do what you did in the last two sets starting one set earlier?" LOL

Of course, Ive also had some where Ive come out slow in the first set....and just stayed that way

Things just need time to click sometimes.

That first match was a weird one. After the first set, the guy switched racquets and I think that helped. And we were playing on this CRAZY-fast court (some city court that we went to because a tree had fallen on his homeowner's association court, which we only went to because my courts were flooded from the morning's rain lol.) Which was really fun to play on, but the guy had a better serve than mine, and it really helped him down the stretch.

Jerry and Nick were the other two guys that were good (Nick being the guy I mentioned playing with outside leagues that also requested to be moved up.) Everyone else, I beat (or should have) beaten pretty easily. That first set against Todd was a choke-joke.

[asimple]

I agree for the most part in the ultimate ranking, but believe they should automatically bump down the bottom players in the league to compensate for the people the playoff winners that are bumped up. This has clearly happened in the Bay Area. The highest playable division has lost between .5 and 1.0 on the USTA scale in the last 3 years.

I did get bumped out this fall with a rating of 8.0 and coming in second. I'm unhappy about not winning, but it was against a good player in 3. If I wasn't bumped I wouldn't have played anyway as no one got bumped down and they brought the next set of 2 weaker players in.

In terms of "playing down", I have recently done this due to improvement in my game. I do go out for every match with the crush the opponent mentality and have not had a single complaint. At first I was playing lightly to be nice, but I think people really prefer just getting beaten.

[Brian11785]

My first week match (green box):



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqxLpZP04K8

The guy I played actually wasn't bad. He's a former 3.5 who is playing 3.0 after a shoulder injury. He's been playing left-handed for a while now because of this. His right-hand-dominant 2HBH is better than the forehand of 95% of 3.0s. But he served a double fault reliably about once per service game (the game he won was one of my service games) and seemed to have issues with the considerable wind. Wind is usually my kryptonite, but I played steady and conservatively. Didn't go for many big shots, except for about a half a dozen wind-aided (somewhat guilt-inducing) drop shots.

In between sets, I did mention during the standard "How long you been playing, etc" conversation about my not being allowed to be bumped up. He seemed sympathetic and told me I was better than most of the 3.5s he played last season when he was bumped down (that season was the first after his injury apparently.) So there's that.

1 down, 5 to go.

[TomT]

Originally Posted by Brian11785

I have been playing in flex leagues for a couple of years now, working my way up from

winning only one match in my first 3.0 season to
winning the city 3.0 tournament to
winning only one set my first season in 3.5 to
going 4-2 my second season in 3.5 (beating a guy in straight sets who'd previously beat me 6-1,6-1.)

All of this progression happened in LeagueTennis.

With a sweet $10 season deal they had going this spring, I decided to sign up for UltimateTennis this time.

The last time I played Ultimate was last summer, I went a respectable 6-1 with a loss in the second round of the 16-person playoffs in 3.0. However, I won several three setters and my rating was a little shy of causing me to be bumped up. All of this happened around the time I was getting demolished in 3.5 LeagueTennis (as mentioned above.)

In the months after that season, I took a few lessons, worked on some weak areas, improved my strengths and found a racquet/string setup that gave me a lot of confidence. Hence, the turn-around and 4-2 record in the fall season of LeagueTennis 3.5. And I think I'm now better than I was in the fall.

I sent an email to UltimateTennis telling them this....that I'd finished with a winning record in 3.5 LeagueTennis, along the way beating a guy who regularly does well in Ultimate 3.5. Basically requesting to be bumped up to 3.5...seemed reasonable.

I was sent a form copy-and-paste-from-the-website letter response denying my request.

So.....here I am. Stuck playing 3.0 for one more season.

Should I:
(a) Attempt to double bagel every person that I play.
(b) Play the whole season with my Jimmy Connors and/or Chris Evert American Star Wilson woodies.
(c) Be a cold machine on court and forward my opponent Ultimate's response at the first sounds of "sandbagger."
(d) Both a and c
(e) Create your own.

???

I'd recommend the Tennis League Network for you, but I don't think it's got a league in the Atlanta area. Don't know for sure though -- you can check it out. As a new TLN member you could self-rate and your rating would be modified (even during seasonal league play), or not, based on your results.

As for your situation with Ultimate it looks like you're stuck with playing a season at 3.0, after which your results, based on what you've said your current playing level is, should cause them to bump you up a level or two.
I'd just go for winning each match by as wide a margin as you can. If any of your opponents mention that you seem too good to be playing 3.0, then you can explain your situation to them. No need to be cold about it. You can use it as a conversation starter or ice-breaker, engaging in friendly conversation between points while proceeding to crush them on court.

I'll be checking out your thread from time to time to see how you're doing. Hope you keep us updated. Post some videos of your playing if possible. Best of luck.

[t135]

Originally Posted by Brian11785

FYI, my last time playing 3.0 singles in Ultimate.



This could be its own thread.
- All the bagels I served, including the first set in the one match I lost.
- The third set choke in the playoffs, after being up 4-1.

That's a lot of three set matches and lop sided scores both ways. Erratic results and not quite ready to close matches out. It would appear to be someone who need another seasonal that level to learn how to close them out consistently in two sets, with consistent scores before moving up a level.

It's a good feeling to know you're getting better isn't it? Just play another season at 3.0, prove you belong at another level and close the matches out. Those match results don't look convincing. Can't blame UT for to moving you up. I'd destroy 3.0 level players.

[j00dypoo]

It's all about history. I took a two year hiatus from UT (broke wrist in car accident) and called them when I was ready to sign up again. They had no problem bumping me up 4 levels after they saw my history and listened to me plead my case.

Have since been bumped up another level and trying my best not to be bumped back down lol.

[Brian11785]

Originally Posted by TomT

I'd recommend the Tennis League Network for you, but I don't think it's got a league in the Atlanta area. Don't know for sure though -- you can check it out. As a new TLN member you could self-rate and your rating would be modified (even during seasonal league play), or not, based on your results.

As for your situation with Ultimate it looks like you're stuck with playing a season at 3.0, after which your results, based on what you've said your current playing level is, should cause them to bump you up a level or two.
I'd just go for winning each match by as wide a margin as you can. If any of your opponents mention that you seem too good to be playing 3.0, then you can explain your situation to them. No need to be cold about it. You can use it as a conversation starter or ice-breaker, engaging in friendly conversation between points while proceeding to crush them on court.

I'll be checking out your thread from time to time to see how you're doing. Hope you keep us updated. Post some videos of your playing if possible. Best of luck.

Yeah, it hasn't been too much of an issue so far. Partially, because I've been beating my opponents with consistency. Nothing too flashy or high-quality, even though my first two matches were blowouts. I will look into TLN; thanks for the head's up.

Originally Posted by t135

That's a lot of three set matches and lop sided scores both ways. Erratic results and not quite ready to close matches out. It would appear to be someone who need another seasonal that level to learn how to close them out consistently in two sets, with consistent scores before moving up a level.

It's a good feeling to know you're getting better isn't it? Just play another season at 3.0, prove you belong at another level and close the matches out. Those match results don't look convincing. Can't blame UT for to moving you up. I'd destroy 3.0 level players.

Yeah, I don't blame UT, based on my on-paper results in their leagues. I just thought trying to get bumped up was worth a shot, based on my LeagueTennis results (having a winning record in 3.5 last season, in particular.)

Originally Posted by j00dypoo

It's all about history. I took a two year hiatus from UT (broke wrist in car accident) and called them when I was ready to sign up again. They had no problem bumping me up 4 levels after they saw my history and listened to me plead my case.

Have since been bumped up another level and trying my best not to be bumped back down lol.

Had you been playing at that higher level before the injury, or, did you just get really good in the two years following it?

_ _ _ _

This week's results:



This guy had lost a one-sided affair last week, so I went in thinking it probably wouldn't be much of a match. But, during the warmup, I was struck by how solid his groundstrokes were, at least compared to my expectations. When the match started, however, it was a different story. He played pretty tight and made a lot of unforced errors. I, for some reason, was playing down as well, but I have at least developed a decent slice for when I get tight and afraid to put pace on no-pace balls.

He said he'd never played leagues before, so I expect him to get better once he gets a some more match experience under his belt. I was there, a year and a half ago.

Next week's match is against the guy who trounced (well, almost as badly as I did) this guy last week. Judging from match history, this should be my biggest test of the season.

[j00dypoo]

Originally Posted by Brian11785

Had you been playing at that higher level before the injury, or, did you just get really good in the two years following it?

I had not previously played at a higher level, but I mistakenly joined the wrong level. It was my first time playing anything other than USTA or ALTA (atlanta league) and was not aware of the difference in NTRP.

It you continue on the path you are this season, you'll be bumped up 2 levels in no time.

[Brian11785]

This guy was by far the best player I've faced yet. Thankfully, I tend to play to my opponent's level. He was hitting these aggressive forehand chop kill shots on anything up the middle. Really tested my footspeed and my spot-hitting ability (his backhand was suspect, and, like most backspinners/slicers/skidders, didn't like to be sliced himself. Three slices to his backhand in a row and he's gonna make an error.)

Judging from the people yet to play that I already know, coupled with the match histories of those that I don't, that looks like it should be my toughest test all season.