Connors v Borg 1978 and the no.1 ranking

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Xavier G

I'm asking because I think some good tennis judges at the time had Connors ahead of Borg, most had Borg as number one.

I presume that experts voted for the top player of the year before Jan. 1. In that case they may have counted Jimmy's Masters victory in Jan. '78 -- not because they truly regarded it as belonging to the '78 season but simply for the expediency of having 12 months of results to evaluate.

In December '77, for example, most experts came out with their rankings for the year even though they were aware that the season would not officially end until the Masters was concluded in Jan. '78. It's just a tradition everywhere to vote for 'best of the year' -- in all things, not just tennis -- before New Year's Day.

And because of that tradition, I'm not sure there was any expert ranking of the '78 season that ended with the January '79 Masters. If there had been, Jimmy's Masters victory in Jan '78 would not have been counted, and then you have to ask how that would have affected votes. Maybe the experts who voted for Jimmy best of the calendar year would have stuck with him and called him the best of the tennis season, too. But maybe not.

Originally Posted by Xavier G

Any additional tournament info anyone has would be useful too.

Borg was 21-2 against the rest of the top ten, Connors 14-3.

I calculated that stat myself using the official computer rankings at year's end -- and using only sanctioned events.

You don't hear too much about that stat today -- probably because conditions are uniform on the tour and everyone faces essentially the same field. But back then, H2H against the whole field was regarded by some as important (Sports Illustrated used it to judge the '77, '83 and '85 seasons; and other experts in '77 also used it).

Borg won 9 non-sanctioned titles: Goteborg; Copenhagen; Tokyo Suntory Cup; Menton French Riviera; Frejus Arena; Essen; Hamburg; Manila; Antwerp.

Connors won 3 non-sanctioned titles (his first such titles since ’72, per his Wikipedia page): Beckenham; Kobe & Tokyo; and Lucerne Invitational.

Borg's winning streak -- ended at the USO -- was also reported prominently in the press, and in year-end publications. I don't know what the official count is, at the ATP, today. Back then it was reported as 55 straight matches.

[jimbo333]

Originally Posted by Xavier G

Yes, jimbo333, it's my thread, so as a Connors fan, I'll give Jimmy the no.1 ranking for 1978 then! He did finish top, after all. Cheers, I've seen the light!

Well i just posted this elsewhere, there don't seem to be that many Connors fans around here, so am doing my best:-

"Jimmy won over 100 tournaments between about 1973 and 1986 (more than anyone in the open era).

And Because if Connors had played the French Open at his peak (he reached 4 semis, and 3 quarters AFTER his best 5 years amazingly), and if he had played the Australian Open more than twice (with a record of 1 win and 1 final), he would have probably won at least 12 Grand Slam tournaments, more than Nadal's current total!

Jimmy was playing in the hardest open eras (70's and 80's), in my opinion he is the third best player of all time (after Federer and Laver), a very underrated player and career by some."

And I would put Borg 4th in the Open era by the way, just my opinion!

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Xavier G

Yes, kiki and a 1977 WCT Dallas final between Borg and Connors would have been great. Who would have won that?!? Who knows. Good work.

True , a rela play off.Connors was great in the two indoor majors, beating Borg in the year end Masters, with a field that included: Vilas,Gottfried,Ramirez,Orantes,dibbs and Roscoe Tanner.Wow¡¡

Stockton is not too popular here, but this guy was incredible all the WCT season, beating Connors at the Philadelphia and Toronto finals and reaching the Dallas final where finally Jimbo could defeat him.he also defeated Borg at the 1977 US Open but it was due to Borg retiring for injury.

Stockton would beat great cc expert Manuel Orantes next year at RG, and would reach the semis before losing to Guillermo Vilas.So, Stockton was a clear top ten guy for 1977-78.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Xavier G

Yes, kiki and a 1977 WCT Dallas final between Borg and Connors would have been great. Who would have won that?!? Who knows. Good work.

True , a rela play off.Connors was great in the two indoor majors, beating Borg in the year end Masters, with a field that included: Vilas,Gottfried,Ramirez,Orantes,dibbs and Roscoe Tanner.Wow¡¡

Stockton is not too popular here, but this guy was incredible all the WCT season, beating Connors at the Philadelphia and Toronto finals and reaching the Dallas final where finally Jimbo could defeat him.he also defeated Borg at the 1977 US Open but it was due to Borg retiring for injury.Stockton would finally lose to Solomon at the quarterfinals of that Open.

Not to mention that Stockton would beat great cc expert Manuel Orantes next year at RG 1978, and would reach the semis before losing to Guillermo Vilas.So, Stockton was a clear top ten guy for 1977-78.Even for a natural serve and volley player like him, clay courts were not such an obstacle.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by kiki

Rome equivalent to Phily, neither of both won the Masters ( John mc Enroe) or WCT title (Vitas Gerulaitis), so at the end, Borg´s two slams as opposed to Jimmy´s one shall give Borg a close edge.

I'm not sure but did Connors attend Dallas in '78? I know Borg did; he gave a walkover to Gerulaitis in the semis because of an infected blister on his right thumb (the very same problem he had in the USO final).

[Xavier G]

Thanks all, good to hear the different thoughts!

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Xavier G

Any additional tournament info anyone has would be useful too.

Another stat you might want to consider is the percentage of games won/games played. PC1 calculated it and he has the exact figures; I recall Borg having an incredibly high performance in that stat, one of the best of the Open Era.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by krosero

I'm not sure but did Connors attend Dallas in '78? I know Borg did; he gave a walkover to Gerulaitis in the semis because of an infected blister on his right thumb (the very same problem he had in the USO final).

No, Jimmy didn´t attend the Dallas summit, I don´t know if he even qualified although he won the biggest regular event on the tour, US pro Indoors, beating Tanner in straights.As you say, Vitas won the championships overcoming Eddie Dibbs in the finals.Connors had won the 77 Dallas finals with a four sets victory over fellow american Dick Stockton (IMO, the 77 tour is the greatest tour ever played in the sport)

[jean pierre]

Borg won FO and Wimbledon ! He was the real n°1 in 1978, just as Vilas was in 1977.

[jimbo333]

Originally Posted by jean pierre

Borg won FO and Wimbledon ! He was the real n°1 in 1978, just as Vilas was in 1977.

No, you can't just look at titles (or head to head for that matter). Connors was the official no.1, yes the real official no.1 for 1977 and 78. Look at the records, it can't be argued with, for those years the computer says on average throughout the year he had the best results!

Now you could easily argue Borg was the best player in 1978, and for that matter Vilas was the best player in 1977, and I probably wouldn't disagree, but that is not the same thing.

[robow7]

Originally Posted by Carsomyr

While Connors won some big titles in '78, he also won some titles that aren't particularly impressive (e.g. Memphis).

Back in the day, Memphis and Philly drew top talent and was a notable win.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by robow7

Back in the day, Memphis and Philly drew top talent and was a notable win.

1979 Memphis semis had Connors vs Gerulaitis and Ashe vs Tanner and in 1980, the final read Mc Enroe vs Connors

[Xavier G]

The BP World of Tennis Yearbook 1980 gave me the idea for this thread.

In Connors' bio at the back of the book, it says 'After slipping behind Borg and Vilas with losing records against both in 1977, Connors had a better year in1978, capturing his third US Open, his first Masters and reaching the final of Wimbledon for the third time in the last four years, a tournament he won in 1974'.

In a way, they seemed to count this Masters as in1978, because it occured in the 1978 calendar year. We count it as the 1977 Masters.


By the way, I used to love that yearbook.

[Xavier G]

Originally Posted by krosero

I presume that experts voted for the top player of the year before Jan. 1. In that case they may have counted Jimmy's Masters victory in Jan. '78 -- not because they truly regarded it as belonging to the '78 season but simply for the expediency of having 12 months of results to evaluate.

In December '77, for example, most experts came out with their rankings for the year even though they were aware that the season would not officially end until the Masters was concluded in Jan. '78. It's just a tradition everywhere to vote for 'best of the year' -- in all things, not just tennis -- before New Year's Day.

And because of that tradition, I'm not sure there was any expert ranking of the '78 season that ended with the January '79 Masters. If there had been, Jimmy's Masters victory in Jan '78 would not have been counted, and then you have to ask how that would have affected votes. Maybe the experts who voted for Jimmy best of the calendar year would have stuck with him and called him the best of the tennis season, too. But maybe not.

Borg was 21-2 against the rest of the top ten, Connors 14-3.

I calculated that stat myself using the official computer rankings at year's end -- and using only sanctioned events.

You don't hear too much about that stat today -- probably because conditions are uniform on the tour and everyone faces essentially the same field. But back then, H2H against the whole field was regarded by some as important (Sports Illustrated used it to judge the '77, '83 and '85 seasons; and other experts in '77 also used it).

Borg won 9 non-sanctioned titles: Goteborg; Copenhagen; Tokyo Suntory Cup; Menton French Riviera; Frejus Arena; Essen; Hamburg; Manila; Antwerp.

Connors won 3 non-sanctioned titles (his first such titles since ’72, per his Wikipedia page): Beckenham; Kobe & Tokyo; and Lucerne Invitational.

Borg's winning streak -- ended at the USO -- was also reported prominently in the press, and in year-end publications. I don't know what the official count is, at the ATP, today. Back then it was reported as 55 straight matches.

Good info there.

[Mustard]

I do think it's very close in 1978, but Borg just edged it over Connors. 1979 wasn't a good year for Connors, as Borg accelerated away as world number 1 and McEnroe was clearly overtaking Connors as the world number 2 before the year was out.

McEnroe voiced his confusion over the Masters timing issue at the time, whether it was the end of the previous year or the start of the new year. Nobody seemed to know. I don't know why they bothered moving the Masters to January and the Australian Open to that dead-end slot around the Christmas period.

[Xavier G]

Originally Posted by Mustard

I do think it's very close in 1978, but Borg just edged it over Connors. 1979 wasn't a good year for Connors, as Borg accelerated away as world number 1 and McEnroe was clearly overtaking Connors as the world number 2 before the year was out.

McEnroe voiced his confusion over the Masters timing issue at the time, whether it was the end of the previous year or the start of the new year. Nobody seemed to know. I don't know why they bothered moving the Masters to January and the Australian Open to that dead-end slot around the Christmas period.

I agree really, I just give the edge to Borg too, kidding aside. I think it's close enough to discuss though and it's not as one-sided as some seem to think. Connors had a good '78.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Xavier G

The BP World of Tennis Yearbook 1980 gave me the idea for this thread.

In Connors' bio at the back of the book, it says 'After slipping behind Borg and Vilas with losing records against both in 1977, Connors had a better year in1978, capturing his third US Open, his first Masters and reaching the final of Wimbledon for the third time in the last four years, a tournament he won in 1974'.

In a way, they seemed to count this Masters as in1978, because it occured in the 1978 calendar year. We count it as the 1977 Masters.


By the way, I used to love that yearbook.

Yes, XavierG, I did it too.Specially because it gave full information of many exos that were very big back then.

[Xavier G]

Originally Posted by kiki

Yes, XavierG, I did it too.Specially because it gave full information of many exos that were very big back then.

I know, I used to like finding out the results of the Tokyo Suntory Cup and others for instance. Those matches all over the globe back then!

[timnz]

The january 1978 was definitely part of the 1977 season. If you think about it, compare it to the current wtf. You are eligible for the wtf if you are in the top 8 immediately before the event. In january 1978 it had to relate to the top 8 from 1977. It couldn't relate to the top 8 of 1978, because that season hadn't happened yet.

Now let's look at 1978. Connors only won 1 masters 1000 equivalent - Philadelphia, over and above his US open title. He did make the wimbledon final too. Borg won two Masters 1000 equivalents (tokyo and rome) along with his wimbledon title and us open finals appearance. I give Borg the nod.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by timnz

The january 1978 was definitely part of the 1977 season. If you think about it, compare it to the current wtf. You are eligible for the wtf if you are in the top 8 immediately before the event. In january 1978 it had to relate to the top 8 from 1977. It couldn't relate to the top 8 of 1978, because that season hadn't happened yet.

Now let's look at 1978. Connors only won 1 masters 1000 equivalent - Philadelphia, over and above his US open title. He did make the wimbledon final too. Borg won two Masters 1000 equivalents (tokyo and rome) along with his wimbledon title and us open finals appearance. I give Borg the nod.

Borg did also win Roland Garros, against Tanner,Ramirez,Barazutti and Vilas and lost no sets in the process...