On hardcourts who gives federer the worst "match-up problem", Djok, Rafa or Murray?

[pvaudio]

I agree with President. At the slams, it's Nadal, but since the AO is the slowest playing of all the GSs (yes, slower than clay by winner statistics) and they've only ever played there, it's not really fair to say. On slow-medium, it's Djoker, on medium speed it's definitely Murray (it only took Federer to get in his 30s, however), but on fast courts, Federer is still fire. Only Berdych makes the majority of Fed fans wince when it comes to HCs because if he's on, he's going through to the next round.

[NadalAgassi]

Berdych was a pushover for Federer until after January 2010 when Federer really began serious decline. Before then Federer regularly rolled Berdych, losing one of the most craptacular matches of his career at the 04 Olympics, and Berdych choking a 2 sets to 0 lead one other time, that being their only even struggles. Even post prime Federer usually seems to be playing bad in his losses to Berdych, whereas Berdych can play very well and still lose like Madrid final this year, and their match last fall. I dont agree at all the match is on Berdych's racquet, and even if that were true, even half prime Federer it would not be the case. Berdych has become a tougher opponent with Federer losing some power, reflexes, and speed with old age. Nadal was often beating even peak Federer on any court, Djokovic started pushing and beating Federer as early as 2007, and Murray scored his first win back in 2006 and began beating him regularly in best of 3s in 2008. No comparision IMO.

[RF20Lennon]

depends on the hardcourt but generally Murray and Berdych (from 2010) have caused troubles.

[abmk]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Nadal obviously. While vastly underrated on hard courts on Tennis Nadal hateorade Warehouse he is arguably the weakest hard courter of the three, certainly weaker than Djokovic. Yet despite that has by far the best record vs Federer on outdoor hard courts. Had he not choked a big lead in the 05 Miami final he would have won his 3 hard court matches with peak Federer as a 17-19 year old, something Djokovic a superior hard court player would never come anywhere near doing.

and if federer had not choked the dubai final ( he had beat nadal thoroughly in the first set ) and was not sick in miami 2004, he would have been 3-0 vs nadal in outdoor hardcourts in that period ....

get it ?

[Spider]

Murray, hands down. When both Murray and Federer play their best on hard courts, Murray comes out on top. A horror match up for Federer because he treats his first serve like it is that of a junior and murders his second serve. He makes Federer work for each and every point, more than both Djokovic and Nadal.

[abmk]

^^

sure explains why federer crushed him in both their HC slam meetings and is 2-1 vs him at the YEC ( with murray's win coming with a huge struggle vs a bad-back federer ) .....

at his best, federer is favoured over the other 3 on HC .....

[abmk]

to answer the thread question :

nadal ~ djoker > murray on slow HC ...
murray ~ djoker >> nadal on fast HC ...

but I'd take fed at his best over any of them at their best on any HC ...

[zagor]

Originally Posted by abmk

to answer the thread question :

nadal ~ djoker > murray on slow HC ...
murray ~ djoker >> nadal on fast HC ...

but I'd take fed at his best over any of them at their best on any HC ...

That's becoming hard to define on this forum, according to a number of people Fed's best tennis is lasting almost a decade now, which of course makes other members of the top 4 look like complete wussies in comparison as they can't even scrap together 3 years of being at their best combined .

That said, presuming all 3 are at their best, I wouldn't favour Fed over Nadal or Novak on a slow outdoor HC, fast HC? Sure, let's say even a medium one (something like rebound ace) but on slow outdoor HC? Can't see it, I'd favour both of them over Fed in that scenario even at Fed's best to be honest.

[abmk]

Originally Posted by zagor

That's becoming hard to define on this forum, according to a number of people Fed's best tennis is lasting almost a decade now, which of course makes other members of the top 4 look like complete wussies in comparison as they can't even scrap together 3 years of being at their best combined .

That said, presuming all 3 are at their best, I wouldn't favour Fed over Nadal or Novak on a slow outdoor HC, fast HC? Sure, let's say even a medium one (something like rebound ace) but on slow outdoor HC? Can't see it, I'd favour both of them over Fed in that scenario even at Fed's best to be honest.

well even with federer serving crappily and both playing well off the ground, federer had won quite a few more points vs nadal in the AO 2009 final till the breakdown in the final set .....

even vs an error-prone federer, almost all the sets b/w him and novak @ the AO in 2008/11 were very close .....

I'd still say slight edge to federer at his best vs both of them even on a slow HC ....

when I say that I mean his level of play in matches like the SF/F vs tsonga/murray in AO 2010 , QF vs delpo in AO 2009 ( though delpo played poorly ) ...

[zagor]

Originally Posted by abmk

well even with federer serving crappily and both playing well off the ground, federer had won quite a few more points vs nadal in the AO 2009 final till the breakdown in the final set .....

Sure, Fed's serve was terrible in that final but his ground game was terrific, the very fact that he was matching Nadal from the baseline on a slow outdoor court tells you that.

If they play a series of matches on such slow outdoor HC, sure Fed will serve better in most of them but will he won't necessarily play as well (as he did in 2009 AO F) off ground in every one of them.

Then again, Nadal didn't display the level he did in 2009 AO all that often in a HC slam so it's hard to say.

Originally Posted by abmk

even vs an error-prone federer, almost all the sets b/w him and novak @ the AO in 2008/11 were very close ......

Yes but almost every match between top players is close, even if it turns out to be a straight set affair, not to mention that too many variables go into every match to simplify it like that.

Fact is, Fed lost in straights both times he faced Novak on AO's decoturf, even presuming he was not at his best in those matches I'd expect him to win atleast a set or two, especially if we're gonna favour him in a potential peak for peak match-up.

Originally Posted by abmk

when I say that I mean his level of play in matches like the SF/F vs tsonga/murray in AO 2010 , QF vs delpo in AO 2009 ( though delpo played poorly ) ...

I know, I know, I was mostly joking about the tendency of some of our resident TW experts (Nadal/Sampras fans, historians etc.) to act like Fed's peak/prime is supposed to be everlasting, he's not allowed to age/decline, have a dip in form etc.