thoughts on my serve welcome

[offthepace]

Be gentle !



I have looked through some of the advice given in other serve threads and its all good, but I think I’ve overloaded myself with information.



Playing sporadically over the years and without any coaching I developed a fairly fast flat serve, but it was inconsistent and had no second serve to back it up.



After playing a lot more regularly recently I‘d like to improve consistency, so had a coach take a look during a group lesson, he switched me to a continental grip and had me work on pronation which has given me some slice and a much better second serve. But now what I have done is trade out the double faults and dolly of a second serve for a serve that’s lost its bite.



The video shows where I’m currently at. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vwjPHLn_vc



The racquet does seem to be closer to my head than nearly every clip I’ve seen so I guess that’s a bad thing.



Is it a reasonable start or is it plain awful J ? Is a flatter serve just a case of pronating exactly the right amount ? i.e. use the same grip and swing but use the level of pronation to dictate slice and power ? Or should I adjust grip slightly flatter for first serves ? Should I just swing harder ? throw the ball further forward etc ? Start from scratch ?



I’m in my early 40’s and 6’3” The video is just me on my own, I think when I play matches I often tense up and am sure I forget to throw forwards.

[Limpinhitter]

If you were to throw the ball into the box, is that what your throwing motion would look like? If so, then you would do yourself a big service (no pun intended), by learning how to throw a ball because that is what the serve is based on.

Start with the basics. Here's one of my posts from another thread.

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

Many people make serving more complicated than it is. The serve is based on throwing. It boils down to tossing the ball in the right spot and throwing the racquet at the ball. The throwing motion, by it's nature, involves upper body rotation (shoulder turn and tilt). So, if you played throwing sports, or already have a good throwing arm, then that's a good place to start - toss and throw. If not, you could do yourself a lot of good by starting your serve practice by just throwing some balls into the service box and replicating that feeling when you actually serve.

[offthepace]

Thanks for responding.

I am naturally left added but bizarrely my best throwing arm is my right. Ive just been trying out side and and can see what you mean about the throwing action.

I ended up with my racket behind my head in an effort to get my elbow higher than my wrist to get more power.

What you are suggesting is starting in the trophy pose I read so much about ?

It might have been how I used to serve, I'm so tied up with it all I can't remember how I used to do it.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by offthepace

Thanks for responding.

I am naturally left added but bizarrely my best throwing arm is my right. Ive just been trying out side and and can see what you mean about the throwing action.

I ended up with my racket behind my head in an effort to get my elbow higher than my wrist to get more power.

What you are suggesting is starting in the trophy pose I read so much about ?

It might have been how I used to serve, I'm so tied up with it all I can't remember how I used to do it.

No, I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm saying, throw about 20 balls into the box - an easy, high arching throw, with a long, full, easy throwing motion. Then toss the ball and throw the racquet at the ball using the same long, full, easy throwing motion you used to throw the ball. Forget about elbows and wrists. You are no where near ready to worry about that. Just throw.

BTW, it would help a lot if you brought your tossing hand down to your front leg, and after touching your leg, gently push the ball into position. In addition, your tossing motion should be parallel to the baseline ie: at 9 O'Clock. That will help get your shoulders turned and your back to the target when you toss. As it is, you are practically facing the target when you toss.

[WildVolley]

Is your shoulder injured?

If you are going to continue hitting with your current form, you might as well start from the racket drop position, because you are currently using your muscles to set the racket in that position, pausing, and then swinging up at the ball.

As Limpinhitter has noted, this isn't how an adult would normally throw a ball. You wouldn't first start with a bent arm in a dropped hand position and then throw from that position. A person who is skilled at throwing, might bend the arm and start with a high elbow and then let the hand drop back into a position in a dynamic fashion as he moves into the forward portion of the throw.

You lose all that dynamic motion by making your trophy position and the racket drop position the same. The racket drop should just be a dynamic point in time as you are going up at the ball. Watch a video of Roddick and his extremely deep racket drop is almost hard to see without watching it in slow motion.

Try to mimic a traditional trophy position and then throw or serve from that point.

[charliefedererer]

There are potentially many things you could work on to improve your serve.

But my advice would be to work on three things:
1. full racquet drop
2. pronation
3. a service toss that will let you begin to rotate back from the ball (coil) while you are tossing


Here are the videos to help you:
1. full racquet drop
McCraw Serve Fundamentals http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuIgT...eature=related

2. pronation
McCraw explaining a serve pronation exercise
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iONY6fcqZGg

3. Serve Toss
Federer Murray Haas & more ball toss common threads http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIF-U...B1814186A2E18C
Tennis Serve Toss - How to Hold the Ball http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8kyn...eature=related
Tennis Serve Tossing Motion Tempo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeZp9...feature=relmfu



Getting a good toss that will get you feeling really balanced in a really balanced trophy position with:
1. more shoulder coil
2. a steeper shoulder angle

Then you can power your serve with uncoiling and reversing the "bow" shape as in this video:
Nick Bollettieri-Sonic Serve.wmv http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajoZ0f7hw-A
But without being able to toss into a great trophy pose, and without an ability to have a full racquet drop and good pronation movement, you'll not be able to take advantage of using your whole body to power your serve.

[LeeD]

That is strangely similar to my right handed serve! I'm a lefty.
I think you should serve right handed.
Your motion is a push, like you're afraid to hit a long ball. You don't seem to be able to put all the mechanics of throwing together with your left side.
First, learn to throw left handed. Throw FAR, throw upwards at 30 degree angles, then go back to serving, maybe.
Let's see your right handed serve.

[offthepace]

Guys, thanks for the input.

Limpinhitter, I have just come back from the courts where I have tried what you suggested. Throwing a couple of dozen balls into the service box, then trying to hit a couple of dozen serves in a similar way. I think I have a fairly decent throwing technique.

Most of them dropped in nicely, a few went into the net, none long. Arm aches now.

Wild Volley, no injured shoulder, just bad technique. Like I say im not sure how it ended up like that. I think it was from watching too many pronation videos on YouTube. Tonight I guess the throws were giving me a trophy position at the start of the motion. It did feel a bit more like some of the videos that charliefedererer posted, thanks for those.

I'll keep practicing the idea of the throw, and also work on the ball toss.

I'll do another video after a few days, see if it's made a difference.

Really appreciate the input.

[ATP100]

Originally Posted by offthepace

Be gentle !



I have looked through some of the advice given in other serve threads and its all good, but I think I’ve overloaded myself with information.

As you have figured out, just change 1 thing at a time and practice that before trying other things.

[offthepace]

Originally Posted by LeeD

That is strangely similar to my right handed serve! I'm a lefty.
I think you should serve right handed.
Your motion is a push, like you're afraid to hit a long ball. You don't seem to be able to put all the mechanics of throwing together with your left side.
First, learn to throw left handed. Throw FAR, throw upwards at 30 degree angles, then go back to serving, maybe.
Let's see your right handed serve.

LeeD, I may video a right serve for a laugh but I'm definitely a lefty. Us leftys do end up a bit mixed up though don't we. Left for racquet sports but right handed for golf. If had to throw something as hard as I could then it go with my right, but for a precision throw like a dart it would be left.

As I said above, the serve used to be very big and unreliable, the coach changed the grip and got me doing the pronation, which the only way I could get to work was as the video shows, which I now realise means I was starting my serve halfway through the correct action ish. The throwing idea you are all saying makes sense.

[5263]

I really think there is some good stuff going on here to build on.
Like others said, take it in bits...not all at once,
so here is where I'll start.

the throwing advice is good and will help to an extent.

I would start with 2 other areas though. First, you are going straight up
like a basket ball jumpshot. You need to be launching up, but about 15 degr
off straight up towards the court and where your ball should be tossed out
front. Also you need to look at your shoulder turn. This relates strongly to
the throwing practice, but you have very little shoulder turn and need more!

[LeeD]

Most lefties are ambi's....
We're taught in a rightie world, so golf rightie, archery rightie, slingshot lefty.
Your lefty motion is out of whack. You don't turn sideways, you don't use a long motion, you just arm the serve like you never threw anything ever.
You say you "used" to hit big serves. Bring back that motion with the conti grip and pronation.

[usta2050]

spend some money and get a good coach. don't waste time on the board or youtube.

[offthepace]

usta, I agree with coach suggestion, and am going to do that straight away.

I haven't wasted my time on here, I have a lot good input which is appreciated. I think if I take away from this thread the 'throwing' idea which isn't how I have ever thought of a serve, then I'm a long way towards getting my action on track.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by offthepace

usta, I agree with coach suggestion, and am going to do that straight away.

I haven't wasted my time on here, I have a lot good input which is appreciated. I think if I take away from this thread the 'throwing' idea which isn't how I have ever thought of a serve, then I'm a long way towards getting my action on track.

You're welcome! Throwing is exactly what it is. Originally, in the late 1800's, as competitive tennis tournaments were forming, serves were underhand. It was considered "impolite" to serve to hard. The purpose of the serve was only to start a point. I can only speculate, but, I would think that the popularity of baseball influenced the advent of the overhand serve. Then came a player by the name of Maurice McLoughlin the practitioner of the first "cannonball serve." And the rest is history.

[usta2050]

Originally Posted by offthepace

usta, I agree with coach suggestion, and am going to do that straight away.

I haven't wasted my time on here, I have a lot good input which is appreciated. I think if I take away from this thread the 'throwing' idea which isn't how I have ever thought of a serve, then I'm a long way towards getting my action on track.

sorry, i just meant that it's better to get a coach. i didn't mean disrepsect to you or the commenters. good luck!