A Few Backhand Questions

[TeflonTom]

i wouldnt bother. gimpy is like a perpetual smugness machine. his overinflated valuation o his own opinion is self sustainin

someone needs 2 harness it, ship him out 2 cali and solve the energy crisis

[Chas Tennis]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

^ ..................There have been numerous discussions in these forums about the presence/myth of "wrist snap". ...................................

John Yandell, Vic Braden and others have written a number of articles on the "myth of the wrist". On the other side, we have Mark Papas (Revolutionary Tennis), John McLellan and others who indicate that wrist snap is not a myth. Many articles and forum threads also discuss the idea of a passive wrist vs an active wrist.

.................................................. ...................... Even back then, he was talking about the importance of forearm rotation and the exaggeration of the role of the wrist in power production.

Sources that disagree with your own bias/perspective are not necessarily wrong. I have seen a few sources, other than the TW forum pages, that talk about the hammer grip being a tightfisted brethren of the continental grip. A couple of these sources indicate that this grip variant, used by Pancho and others, is not one that is widely taught.

OTOH, I have come across more sources than not that present the terms, "hammer grip" and "chopper grip" merely as alternate names for the continental grip. They do not make the distinctions that you do. I have not come across any definitive articles from the ITF or the USTA that clearly defines these various terms. Who is to say that your perspective is the correct one?
.

The joint motions of the human body have been studied, defined and named. Maybe the communication problem is in the undefined terminology. 'Snap'?

I have found that tennis biomechanics researcher B. Elliott uses terms for joint movements/position that conform to the academic conventions. (There are also exceptions such as the "somersalt" and "cartwheel" terminology that he uses for trunk movement.)

In his research on the serve he has a much quoted table that indicates contributions to racket head speed on the serve:

Internal Shoulder Rotation 40%
Wrist Flexion 30%
& other joint motions, the remainder

I believe that the table above gives joint angular velocity contributions to racket head speed based on high speed video or film. I don't believe that information about the muscle forces involved were directly measured. ISR is directly and powerfully driven but what about wrist flexion?

The angular movement of a joint and whether it is 1) receiving force from a stretched muscle, 2) receiving force from an actively contracting muscle or 3) receiving no force and changing angle completely passively is not indicated in the table that identifies how these joint angle motions contribute to racket head speed. I believe - the tricky uncertainty for judging our own motions might be that #1 and #3 might not give much sensation that we are doing anything. We really feel #2. I believe that wrist motions at impact are mostly of the type #1 (stretch driven) and #3 (passive) above. Also, high speed videos of serves to me look very complex with probably more than one wrist joint motion occurring simultaneously. Is it just Flexion?

It takes very directed biomechanics research with 3D motion capture multi-camera systems and possibly other acceleration sensors to characterize this very complex wrist motion to give both wrist angle and the forces acting on the wrist as a function of time. Maybe that research has not been done yet.

Reference -Joints and muscles - Manual of Structural Kinesiology, C. Thomson, R. Floyd

Stroke Biomechanics - Technique Development in Tennis Stroke Production, B.Elliott, M. Reid, M. Crespo

[Ash_Smith]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

OTOH, I have come across more sources than not that present the terms, "hammer grip" and "chopper grip" merely as alternate names for the continental grip. They do not make the distinctions that you do.
.

Yep, in the UK "chopper grip" is a pretty much universally accepted way of saying "continental grip" - I would actually wager if you asked a group of recreational players to show you a conti grip they wouldn't know where to start, but if you asked them to show you a chopper grip they'd nail it first time! Hammer grip is less used in the UK but much more widely used on the Continent, in Spain for example it has the same usage pattern as chopper in the UK.

Only on this board (which is heavily US centric) have I ever heard the distinction or even the terminology "pistol" and "hammer" grip used to mean the position of the fingers!

Cheers

[FrisbeeFool]

Originally Posted by TeflonTom

i wouldnt bother. gimpy is like a perpetual smugness machine. his overinflated valuation o his own opinion is self sustainin

someone needs 2 harness it, ship him out 2 cali and solve the energy crisis

Hahaha he's a self appointed expert on every aspect of tennis.

[Funbun]

To answer the OP's first question, it's pretty simple.

A lot of the time it could be not keeping a stable wrist throughout the slice. Late or bad contact points can also be a culprit. Sometimes, it could be not having a straight arm at the point of contact, not driving through the ball.

[SystemicAnomaly]

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

The joint motions of the human body have been studied, defined and named. Maybe the communication problem is in the undefined terminology. 'Snap'?

I have found that tennis biomechanics researcher B. Elliott uses terms for joint movements/position that conform to the academic conventions. (There are also exceptions such as the "somersalt" and "cartwheel" terminology that he uses for trunk movement.)

In his research on the serve he has a much quoted table that indicates contributions to racket head speed on the serve:

Internal Shoulder Rotation 40%
Wrist Flexion 30%
& other joint motions, the remainder

I believe that the table above gives joint angular velocity contributions to racket head speed based on high speed video or film. I don't believe that information about the muscle forces involved were directly measured. ISR is directly and powerfully driven but what about wrist flexion?

The angular movement of a joint and whether it is 1) receiving force from a stretched muscle, 2) receiving force from an actively contracting muscle or 3) receiving no force and changing angle completely passively is not indicated in the table that identifies how these joint angle motions contribute to racket head speed. I believe - the tricky uncertainty for judging our own motions might be that #1 and #3 might not give much sensation that we are doing anything. We really feel #2. I believe that wrist motions at impact are mostly of the type #1 (stretch driven) and #3 (passive) above. Also, high speed videos of serves to me look very complex with probably more than one wrist joint motion occurring simultaneously. Is it just Flexion?

It takes very directed biomechanics research with 3D motion capture multi-camera systems and possibly other acceleration sensors to characterize this very complex wrist motion to give both wrist angle and the forces acting on the wrist as a function of time. Maybe that research has not been done yet.

Reference -Joints and muscles - Manual of Structural Kinesiology, C. Thomson, R. Floyd

Stroke Biomechanics - Technique Development in Tennis Stroke Production, B.Elliott, M. Reid, M. Crespo

Thanks for this posting of Bruce Elliot's work. I believe that Dr Elliot never uses the term, wrist snap, to explain the wrist and forearm actions in the serve.

On the upward part of the swing, prior to contact, there is some wrist deviation and some wrist flexion. The wrist is pretty much neutral at contact and does not need to flex any further than that. However, some mild forward flexion has been observed well after contact with some elite servers. OTOH, many servers who attempt a wrist snap will often employ a very exaggerated flexion -- I believe that this goes well beyond the wrist flexion that Elliot describes. Here is an article references Elliot's work. Note the text in Step 5 that refers to "wrist snap":

http://www.livestrong.com/article/20...-faster-serve/

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

Yep, in the UK "chopper grip" is a pretty much universally accepted way of saying "continental grip" - I would actually wager if you asked a group of recreational players to show you a conti grip they wouldn't know where to start, but if you asked them to show you a chopper grip they'd nail it first time! Hammer grip is less used in the UK but much more widely used on the Continent, in Spain for example it has the same usage pattern as chopper in the UK.

Only on this board (which is heavily US centric) have I ever heard the distinction or even the terminology "pistol" and "hammer" grip used to mean the position of the fingers!

Cheers

Thanks for this UK perspective on the chopper/hammer grip. I have only really seen one source outside of the TW forums that make a distinction between a hammer grip and a standard continental grip. However, I have seen quite a few posters on this board make a distinction. It does not appear this the use of the terms in this manner is wide-spread outside of this forum board. Perhaps its useage is localized or perhaps this is an older terminolgy that was used in some texts -- But I have not come across any of these.
.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

* * *

Sources that disagree with your own bias/perspective are not necessarily wrong. I have seen a few sources, other than the TW forum pages, that talk about the hammer grip being a tightfisted brethren of the continental grip. A couple of these sources indicate that this grip variant, used by Pancho and others, is not one that is widely taught.

OTOH, I have come across more sources than not that present the terms, "hammer grip" and "chopper grip" merely as alternate names for the continental grip. They do not make the distinctions that you do. I have not come across any definitive articles from the ITF or the USTA that clearly defines these various terms. Who is to say that your perspective is the correct one?
.

Now you are defending the indefensable. There is nothing biased about my perspective. You have misused the word bias. The term "hammer grip" is not interchangeable with "Continental grip." One has nothing to do with the other. And, anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what he/she is talking about. I've already explained it in plain, easy to understand terms. It matters not one bit how many sources you've come across that have used the terms incorrectly. It's no more subject to debate than whether the sky is blue and the grass is green. You just don't like being told that you, and your "sources" are wrong. Sorry, they are wrong, and if you agree with them, then you are wrong.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

Yep, in the UK "chopper grip" is a pretty much universally accepted way of saying "continental grip" - I would actually wager if you asked a group of recreational players to show you a conti grip they wouldn't know where to start, but if you asked them to show you a chopper grip they'd nail it first time! Hammer grip is less used in the UK but much more widely used on the Continent, in Spain for example it has the same usage pattern as chopper in the UK.

Only on this board (which is heavily US centric) have I ever heard the distinction or even the terminology "pistol" and "hammer" grip used to mean the position of the fingers!

Cheers

As I've previously explained, hammer grip and Continental grip are not interchangeable. One has nothing to do with the other. A hammer grip is when your fingers are compact rather the spread out on the handle. A Continental grip discribes the side of the handle your hand is on. You can just as easily have a spread Continental grip, like Laver as you can a hammer SW grip, like Courier. I've never heard of a chopper grip. But, if it's interchangeable with hammer grip, then it's not ingerchangeable with Continental grip.

[TeflonTom]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

The term "hammer grip" is not interchangeable with "Continental grip."

sauce?

u have a habit of makin definitive pronouncements n backin them up with nothin more than ur own ego

[BevelDevil]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

However, I would not characterize the elbow as "very bent" in your picture.

In relation to other players it's pretty bent. Whether it's a technical flaw or not remains to be resolved.

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

This is not not late in the forward swing either. It might be late in the backswing or early in the forward swing.

Yes, it's early in the forward swing. In my previous post, I intended to mean, "Pretty late in the forward swing for that much elbow bend". Most players already have a pretty straight arm after release, I think.

btw, I took this pic from a video,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX7CcDIkMhE

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

As such, I do not see much of an issue with his slightly bent elbow at that point in his stroke. I would say that this is a fairly minor issue at most.

The problem isn't Federer's stroke; I think he has an excellent backhand, in which his bent arm plays an essential role.

The problem is with people trying to copy him. I think they are more likely (though not assured) to end up with too much arm bend, too much leg lift, abrupt uncoiling, reckless rackethead speed, and too much "wristiness." Trying to be "Federeresque" and going too far.

Teaching a student to keep his/her arm straighter early on imposes a certain deliberateness and discipline to the stroke, since the racket can't be whipped around as easily. It is also a more simple stroke.

[Ash_Smith]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

As I've previously explained, hammer grip and Continental grip are not interchangeable. One has nothing to do with the other. A hammer grip is when your fingers are compact rather the spread out on the handle. A Continental grip discribes the side of the handle your hand is on. You can just as easily have a spread Continental grip, like Laver as you can a hammer SW grip, like Courier. I've never heard of a chopper grip. But, if it's interchangeable with hammer grip, then it's not ingerchangeable with Continental grip.

And as I have just explained in the 15 years I have been coaching in the UK and Spain (to a pretty high level) the terms chopper/hammer and continental are used interchangeably. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant and just because your opinion says differently, doesn't make you automatically right!

You might be able to say "In my opinion the terms shouldn't be used interchangeably because..." but you cannot flat out say they are "not interchangeable" because they are used as such in many places.

Cheers

[TeflonTom]

pwned.....

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

And as I have just explained in the 15 years I have been coaching in the UK and Spain (to a pretty high level) the terms chopper/hammer and continental are used interchangeably. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant and just because your opinion says differently, doesn't make you automatically right!

You might be able to say "In my opinion the terms shouldn't be used interchangeably because..." but you cannot flat out say they are "not interchangeable" because they are used as such in many places.

Cheers

If they are used interchangeably, then they are used erroneously. A hammer grip is a compact grip. That's not my opinion, nor did I didn't invent that term. That is the term that has been used to describe a compact grip for at least 50 years based on some of the vintage tennis publications I own and have read, although I expect it's been much more than 50 years.

[Chas Tennis]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

...................... Here is an article references Elliot's work. Note the text in Step 5 that refers to "wrist snap":
http://www.livestrong.com/article/20...-faster-serve/

After reading this other link I do not trust Livestrong especially on tennis issues

http://www.livestrong.com/article/50...rve-in-tennis/

In the article it says

"Internal shoulder rotation, or rotation of the arm toward the center of the body, accelerates the arm during the swing. This motion is carried out by the subscapularis muscle."

The identification of this small rotator cuff muscle is not correct and indicates at best a poor description or, at worse, a serious lack of understanding. The article is about muscles, movements and injuries.................... I tried to leave a comment but had to sign in through FB to do so........

In step 4 & 5 of the link that you provided, I guess it is correct but its not the clearest description. I'd suggest that anyone interested in Elliott's results to get the original publications or the book Technique Development for Stroke Production as Elliott's descriptions are very readable and clear.

Biomechanics references:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=427364