Come on, let's go! Or not.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by slowfox

Funny stories. Wouldn't a clever opposing team figure out your verbals at some point? They can't see hand signals.

I wonder if that is the reason the opponent went DTL on break point.

A savvy opponent would pick up on verbal signals in about -- oh, I don't know -- two points.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by dizzlmcwizzl

One time I had a partner that wanted me to use a word that started with W every time I was going to serve out wide.

So I would have to say randomly say things like "whats the score", "Where is the third ball", and "Wisconsin football sux".

Or perhaps more appropriately, "What the [bleep]?"

Boy, I am shocked to hear that there is even one additional person walking the planet who thought verbal signals were a good idea.

[beernutz]

That's why I don't use signals at all for poaching. Poaching effectively imo depends on the server being able to serve the ball into the center of the court near the T and there are too many servers at 3.5 and 4.0 who can't do that. Heck, most of the benefit I see of poaching and fake poaching is generating UEs and weak returns by putting doubt into the mind of the returner about where exactly the poacher will be.

[TennisCJC]

Dear Cindy,

Your partner is an idiot.

You should use hand signals for porches:
1 finger = going on 1st serve
2 fingers = going on 2nd serve
3 fingers = going on both 1st and 2nd serve
Fist (0 fingers) = staying home

Whenever there is a CALLED POACH, the net man must cover all the way and you must switch. There is no such thing as I'm poaching but you stay behind me in case I don't get it. They MUST get it and you MUST switch.

There is a big diffence from playing off the serve, where they wait to see where you are serving and then go if possilbe and a planned poach.

Either tell you partner how it works or get a new partner.

[TennisCJC]

Originally Posted by beernutz

That's why I don't use signals at all for poaching. Poaching effectively imo depends on the server being able to serve the ball into the center of the court near the T and there are too many servers at 3.5 and 4.0 who can't do that. Heck, most of the benefit I see of poaching and fake poaching is generating UEs and weak returns by putting doubt into the mind of the returner about where exactly the poacher will be.

What you are describing is not a called poach. It is just playing off the serve. The net man should always shift with the serve and look to be aggessive but a CALLED POACH rquires the net man to cover the CC return and requires the server to switch cover the DTL return.

Playing aggressively off the serve AND a CALLED POACH are both great strategies but they are 2 vary different things. When playing off the serve, the net man is ultimately responsible for the DTL return and he is responsible for the CC return on a called poach.

[SwankPeRFection]

Doubles - serve down the middle unless you have a really good out wide serve. Serving down the middle minimizes the angles someone can shoot for, so unless they're really good with nailing low % returns down the line from the middle position of the service landing, you're almost always assured of a cross-court return or a popup over your partner.

Bottom line is this, if the guy isn't going to poach when he says he's going to call for a poach, then it's no different then him waiting to see what the return is and reacting to it, just like you should be serving and watching his reaction to judge what you should be doing in case you need to switch.

That said, it sounds to me like you're not to the playing level where you like having the net partner call your serves as what you wrote shows that it puts too much pressure on you and you can't serve in the right spots or you double-fault. No problem, just be sure to tell your partners that want to play that game that you cannot because you're not confident on serve placement. Until you get to the point where your serve can reliably force errors on both your first and second serves from same level ranked opponents, you have no business letting your net partner call the shots because what that says is that your serve is weak enough that he/she will get eaten up alive trying to attack the return of serve. Until your serve becomes a weapon, work more on starting the point out and then playing it out instead of trying to start and finish it by attacking the return of serve. You cannot attack the return of serve if the serve is no good because the return will usually be a punishing one.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by beernutz

That's why I don't use signals at all for poaching. Poaching effectively imo depends on the server being able to serve the ball into the center of the court near the T and there are too many servers at 3.5 and 4.0 who can't do that. Heck, most of the benefit I see of poaching and fake poaching is generating UEs and weak returns by putting doubt into the mind of the returner about where exactly the poacher will be.

I think signaled/planned poaches are awesome. Honestly, I think it works better at the 3.5/4.0 level than opportunistic poaching.

Many players are afraid of being burned DTL if they poach or are not confident in being able to reach the Xcourt ball. So they go the whole match parked and never poaching.

Signaling frees the net player from worries about the DTL shot. It lets the net player take off a little earlier in moving toward the center if she wants. And it takes away that moment of indecision about whether she should or shouldn't take this or that ball.

Not to mention how it gets into the returner's head and they start wondering more what the net player is doing rather than what they should be doing.

So signaling has its place, IME. If done correctly, anyway.

[beernutz]

Originally Posted by TennisCJC

What you are describing is not a called poach. It is just playing off the serve. The net man should always shift with the serve and look to be aggessive but a CALLED POACH rquires the net man to cover the CC return and requires the server to switch cover the DTL return.

Playing aggressively off the serve AND a CALLED POACH are both great strategies but they are 2 vary different things. When playing off the serve, the net man is ultimately responsible for the DTL return and he is responsible for the CC return on a called poach.

No there are poaches and there are called poaches. I agree that what I'm doing is not a called poach but it absolutely a poach. Poaching can be done on any point in doubles, not just the serve.

Here's a write up that explains my understanding of poaching and actually names the two types: situational and planned.
http://www.webtennis24.com/free-stuf...hing-free.html

[dizzlmcwizzl]

Originally Posted by TennisCJC

You should use hand signals for porches:
1 finger = going on 1st serve
2 fingers = going on 2nd serve
3 fingers = going on both 1st and 2nd serve
Fist (0 fingers) = staying home

I never seen that ... we signal every serve attempt so there is no need to let someone know what I plan to do should he miss his first serve.

Our signals ...

Open hand, I am going, so serve it down the T
Closed fist, I am staying ... feel free to go wide, but usually from the body out to the T

And my personal favorite

Middle finger ... serve into the body and if there is a weak return I am going to be aggressive.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by dizzlmcwizzl

I never seen that ... we signal every serve attempt so there is no need to let someone know what I plan to do should he miss his first serve.

Our signals ...

Open hand, I am going, so serve it down the T
Closed fist, I am staying ... feel free to go wide, but usually from the body out to the T

And my personal favorite

Middle finger ... serve into the body and if there is a weak return I am going to be aggressive.

We don't signal serve location. If the signal is go, the server knows that T is best. If the signal is stay, server can do what she wants.

[beernutz]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I think signaled/planned poaches are awesome. Honestly, I think it works better at the 3.5/4.0 level than opportunistic poaching.

Many players are afraid of being burned DTL if they poach or are not confident in being able to reach the Xcourt ball. So they go the whole match parked and never poaching.

Signaling frees the net player from worries about the DTL shot. It lets the net player take off a little earlier in moving toward the center if she wants. And it takes away that moment of indecision about whether she should or shouldn't take this or that ball.

Not to mention how it gets into the returner's head and they start wondering more what the net player is doing rather than what they should be doing.

So signaling has its place, IME. If done correctly, anyway.

I'm not arguing that planning poaching with signals isn't effective, it just hasn't been effective for me whereas situational poaching (and a lot of fake poaching) has been very effective. The reasons it hasn't worked well with me are that I can't get cooperative partners who can or will:
* consistently serve down the T or at least to the body when a poach is signalled
* cover behind me effectively
* endeavor to get their first serve in a high percentage of the time

Planned poaching with signals I'm sure would be very effective with the right partner, I'm just still looking for him.

[Spokewench]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

AHAHAH!! Maybe we should all adopt poaching nicknames. I think I will tell my next partner that if she wants me to poach, she is to toss the ball and yell, "Who'sYourDaddy!"

I love this one! LOL - I am rolling on the floor just imagining one of my older 4.0 ladies yelling who's your daddy as they serve!

[burosky]

Maybe it's just me but when I play social doubles and my partner starts talking about signals I just politely remind them to chill.

[slowfox]

Originally Posted by dizzlmcwizzl

And my personal favorite

Middle finger ... serve into the body and if there is a weak return I am going to be aggressive.

Same signal if you wanna dump your partner afterwards.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by beernutz

I'm not arguing that planning poaching with signals isn't effective, it just hasn't been effective for me whereas situational poaching (and a lot of fake poaching) has been very effective. The reasons it hasn't worked well with me are that I can't get cooperative partners who can or will:
* consistently serve down the T or at least to the body when a poach is signalled
* cover behind me effectively
* endeavor to get their first serve in a high percentage of the time

Planned poaching with signals I'm sure would be very effective with the right partner, I'm just still looking for him.

I don't mind if the server misses her spot. It means I will have to take off earlier.

What I notice about partners who aren't used to signals is they don't cross, the ball goes DTL for a winner, then they complain that I left too soon.

Nope. I left at the exact right moment to cover the cross court. You failed to cross.

But you are right. You need the right partner for it to work.

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I was playing social mixed with a singles player guy I didn't know well. This was our conversation as I stepped up to serve.

Partner: "I think we need to mix it up. Here's the plan. If I'm not going to poach, I will say, 'Come on, come on!' If I'm going to poach, I will say, 'Come on, let's go!' So before you serve listen for me to say 'Let's go!'"

Cindy: "Um . . . So if you say 'Let's go!', that means you are poaching, so I'll serve and cross behind you."

Partner: "No. If I say 'Let's go!', that means I'm going to poach, but if I don't think I can reach the ball then I won't poach so you don't have to cross."

I take up my normal position at the baseline and start bouncing the ball. I hear a chorus of "Come on, come on, come on!!" I look up and see my partner standing on the service line. I serve, returner puts the ball into partner's body, love 15.

I get ready to serve and I hear chants of "Come on, come on, let's go, come on." Partner is standing on the service line, shaded toward the alley. Wow, how is he going to poach from way over there? Should I stay back or come in? Where should I serve in this bizarre situation? DF. Love 30.

Next point, I hear a bunch of noise and can't wrap my brain around it. Did he say "Let's go," should I ask him to repeat the chanting? Screw it, I just serve and stand there. He didn't poach, so it must have been a "Come on" and not a "Let's go!" We lost the point, love 40.

OK, gotta get serious now. I get ready to serve and I hear "Let's go, let's go, come on!" Partner is standing on service line, oy. I serve, he takes off to cross, returner hits into his vacant alley, which I didn't cover. Game to receivers.

There's gotta be a better way!

Just to put this disaster into perspective: what age was this guy?

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

Just to put this disaster into perspective: what age was this guy?

Oldish. Maybe 55.

[SweetH2O]

Originally Posted by beernutz

I'm not arguing that planning poaching with signals isn't effective, it just hasn't been effective for me whereas situational poaching (and a lot of fake poaching) has been very effective. The reasons it hasn't worked well with me are that I can't get cooperative partners who can or will:
* consistently serve down the T or at least to the body when a poach is signalled
* cover behind me effectively
* endeavor to get their first serve in a high percentage of the time

Planned poaching with signals I'm sure would be very effective with the right partner, I'm just still looking for him.

Originally Posted by burosky

Maybe it's just me but when I play social doubles and my partner starts talking about signals I just politely remind them to chill.

I agree with both of these. I would like to find a partner that would be willing and able to use signals. But I really only find it necessary for competitive play instead of in social tennis situations.

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Oldish. Maybe 55.

Old, yet not ancient. Sounds like a "hobbiest", who over-thinks these sorts of things, who knows? Maybe it worked for him back in yesteryear, but in the interim he has lost enough memory such that he can't even remember what you guys agreed to.