We have a GOAT - Pancho Gonzales

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by abmk

yes, you did say federer has a touch weakness ......why else do you think I wrote what is in my signature ? why else do you think so many were ridiculing you about your comment about federer's touch ? do you want me to dig up that post ?

federer is a power baseliner , with all-courter tendencies , who has excellent touch and shows it much more than most in the open era ........of course he uses his power game more as it is more effective in the modern era ....

you are making the mistake of comparing with years prior to 1970, simiarly as you were doing when you were talking about peak/prime years of the players ......the game was clearly more touch based then ....

coming back to the federer BH, how is then that in a baseline-oriented era, he gets 17 majors ( all in full fields ) and 6 year ending championships then ?

fact is he has a pretty good backhand , but it can be a relative weakness ..... just like rosewall had a pretty good forehand, but it could be a relative weakness ....

krosero already mentioned this and showcased instances, didn't he ?



I'm not talking about a few exceptions here and there .... yes, I do know laver used quite a bit of topspin ... I'm talking about the shift as a whole ...across the tour ....

it was a step up in early to mid 70s with borg, vilas, solomon, dibbs, connors ( not topspin, power) etc ....
another step up with arrival of graphite in mid 80s
another step up with the arrival of poly in early 2000s

Rosewall also beat Solomon and Dibbs...

He defeated Solomon 6-2,6-1 when being 41. He defeated Dibbs 6-2,6-2 when already 42. He even won a set from Dibbs 6-0 when being 43 and Dibbs the No.4 player in the world...

[abmk]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

abmk, As you blame me for every word or even letter , I must give this back: You yet wrote that McEnroe and Nastase were the only ones playing against topspin players. Read your post!

It's really not gentleman-like that you use your signation...

You seems to be that you are the last Federer admirer to whom I response. Maybe you will take it as an honour ...

I said :

"but out of those, nastase and mac are the only ones who played once topspin/power game came into prominence circa the early to mid 70s"

that doesn't mean others didn't play against "topspin"/"power" at all, just that on average, they played far less than the subsequent generations and used touch far more than the players in the subsequent generations ...

as far as the sig goes, I will change it once I get a funnier/more apt one ...... don't worry , that will be soon

[Benhur]

All this talk about touch. The amount of touch used is determined by the instrument. Criticizing modern players for infrequent use of touch is like criticizing Eric Clapton for infrequent use of sounds best obtained with a soprano ukulele.

[abmk]

Originally Posted by kiki

I said first years Agassi.He put a lot of spin, kinda american twist serve but the guy had normal size and didn´t have too much power on that.It improved later on but was never a great serve.

Muster,Vilas,Kodes,Hewitt,Wilander, Connors,Orantes and Rosewall are the modern era players that got the farest way without having a great serve.Some of them had a better serve ( a slighty better one I´d add) than the others but none of them had a real great serve.I think Gerulaitis was considered a medium class server, but my recall is that he had a significant better serve than any of those mentioned.

I don't think you mentioned early years agassi in that post ... yes, in his earlier years, he used to spin it on more ........ later on he beefed it up ...

wasn't gerulaitis' 2nd serve considered quite a bit of weakness ?

none of those you mentioned had a great serve, but amongst the #1s, I don't think you can conclusively say rosewall didn't have the worst among them .....

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by abmk

I said :

"but out of those, nastase and mac are the only ones who played once topspin/power game came into prominence circa the early to mid 70s"

that doesn't mean others didn't play against "topspin"/"power" at all, just that on average, they played far less than the subsequent generations and used touch far more than the players in the subsequent generations ...

as far as the sig goes, I will change it once I get a funnier/more apt one ...... don't worry that will be soon .....

..."were the only players". You did not write about exceptions.

I appreciate your intelligence. So be serious!

[kiki]

Originally Posted by abmk

I don't think you mentioned early years agassi in that post ... yes, in his earlier years, he used to spin it on more ........ later on he beefed it up ...

wasn't gerulaitis' 2nd serve considered quite a bit of weakness ?

none of those you mentioned had a great serve, but amongst the #1s, I don't think you can conclusively say rosewall didn't have the worst among them .....

Rosewall serve was not big but angled and well placed.Not easy at all to attack, specially for he was a great mover and counterpuncher.One of the things I found out watching him live is how well, knowing his serve was not a winning weapon, used angles and constant change of placements.the use he made of his serve is IMo far better than the use connors did of his.

Gerulaitis definitely had a problem with his second serve.His first ball was pretty good, though

[abmk]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

..."were the only players". You did not write about exceptions.

I appreciate your intelligence. So be serious!

read the whole sentence again .......

it means once there was quite a bit more power/topspin across the tour as a whole , only players in your list who played quite a bit were nastase/mac .....

the others did face players with power/topspin , but far less frequently ....

[borg number one]

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by borg number one

borg number one, Thanks for that remembrance of Big Pancho.

[Phoenix1983]

^ he does look kinda like Sampras.

[borg number one]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

borg number one, Thanks for that remembrance of Big Pancho.

You're welcome, glad you enjoyed them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPuC6NzAL4 (Gonzalez and Rosewall in a tough match at Forest Hills in 195


This is a nice tribute to him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTT9Wd6OwGo

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by borg number one

You're welcome, glad you enjoyed them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPuC6NzAL4 (Gonzalez and Rosewall in a tough match at Forest Hills in 195


This is a nice tribute to him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTT9Wd6OwGo

borg number one, Thanks for your nice words.

Thanks also for these two interesting videos. P.G. is truly a very great player. He deserves every respect!

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by Mustard

Big achievements of Pancho Gonzales

• Won 2 US Championships as an amateur in 1948 and 1949

• Won 3 Wembley Pros in a row in 1950, 1951 and 1952

• Added a fourth Wembley Pro title in 1956

• Won 7 US Pros in a row in 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958 and 1959

• Didn't play the 1960 US Pro, but won his 8th US Pro title in 1961

• Won 3 consecutive Tournament of Champions titles in 1956, 1957 and 1958

• Won the head-to-head World Pro Tours of 1954, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960 and 1961, which were the biggest events in professional tennis at the time. The only head-to-head World Pro Tour that Gonzales lost was to Kramer in 1950 (27-96). 1954 was Gonzales beating Segura, Sedgman and Budge. 1956 was Gonzales beating Trabert (74-27), 1957 was Gonzales beating Rosewall (50-26), 1958 was Gonzales beating Hoad (51-36), 1959 was Gonzales beating Hoad, Cooper and Anderson, 1960 was Gonzales beating Rosewall, Segura and Olmedo. And 1961 was Gonzales beating Gimeno, Hoad, MacKay, Olmedo, Buchholz and Sedgman.

• I personally have Gonzales as world number 1 for 8 years in a row (1954-1961), and it's pretty close at the top in 1952 between Segura and Gonzales without a big head-to-head tour involving Kramer that year.

• At the age of 41, Gonzales saved 7 match points, twice from 0-40 down, during his 1969 Wimbledon first round match against Pasarell. Gonzales won the match 22-24, 1-6, 16-14, 6-3, 11-9, and is thought to be the biggest reason behind the introduction of the tiebreak into tennis from 1970-1973

• Capable of beating Rod Laver in 5 sets during Laver's peak in a $10,000 winner takes all match, which he did in February 1970.

Of course, there are some questions here.

His opponent in 1948 US final was Sturgess, not on my list of all-time greats.

His opponent in the 1950 Wembley final was van Horn, who also doesn't make my list of all-time greats.

Many of the Cleveland US Pros were weak fields, and an unaccredited title.
(Didn't he beat Don Budge in one of the finals?)

The 1954 Pro Tour was not a head-to-head, but a round robin series.

In 1959, Gonzales did not beat Hoad, but since the predominance of Gonzales' and Hoad's matches were against each other, and not against the rookies, Gonzales concluded that he had lost a head-to-head against Hoad.
("The only player who beat me in a head-to-head tour was Hoad in 1959", obviously downgrading the Kramer tour of 1950).

[Mustard]

You're so predictable, Dan. Most of the US Pros that Gonzales won had strong fields, players like Budge, Segura and Hoad, also Sedgman in a couple of years as well. It's funny that you don't mention that the 1959 world pro tour was a 4-man tour (Gonzales, Hoad, Cooper, Anderson), whereas you do mention it for 1954.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by Mustard

You're so predictable, Dan. Most of the US Pros that Gonzales won had strong fields, players like Budge, Segura and Hoad, also Sedgman in a couple of years as well. It's funny that you don't mention that the 1959 world pro tour was a 4-man tour (Gonzales, Hoad, Cooper, Anderson), whereas you do mention it for 1954.

Mustard, I agree. And also Rosewall and Trabert participated in a few years.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by Mustard

You're so predictable, Dan. Most of the US Pros that Gonzales won had strong fields, players like Budge, Segura and Hoad, also Sedgman in a couple of years as well. It's funny that you don't mention that the 1959 world pro tour was a 4-man tour (Gonzales, Hoad, Cooper, Anderson), whereas you do mention it for 1954.

The Cleveland was a joke. Never attracted a strong field.
The best players took a pass on Cleveland, and it was simply used as a route-stop for the 4-man tour.
Budge was how old when he played Gonzales in the 1953 final? Was it 37? For Budge, that was late.

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by Mustard

You're so predictable, Dan. Most of the US Pros that Gonzales won had strong fields, players like Budge, Segura and Hoad, also Sedgman in a couple of years as well. It's funny that you don't mention that the 1959 world pro tour was a 4-man tour (Gonzales, Hoad, Cooper, Anderson), whereas you do mention it for 1954.

The 1954 tour was a true round-robin, where every player played each other the same number of times.

In 1959, Hoad and Gonzales played each other 28 times, Cooper and Anderson played each other 27 times (they played one match less than the two veteran headliners), but Hoad played Cooper only 20 times, and Gonzales played Anderson 20 times, Hoad played Anderson only 14 times and Gonzales played Cooper 14 times.
Thus, each stop on the tour was provided with a Hoad/Gonzales match which headlined the stop, and gave the impression of a head-to-head between the top two players in the world.

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

The Cleveland was a joke. Never attracted a strong field.
The best players took a pass on Cleveland, and it was simply used as a route-stop for the 4-man tour.
Budge was how old when he played Gonzales in the 1953 final? Was it 37? For Budge, that was late.

At the US Pros in Cleveland:

1952 had Segura, Gonzales, Budge and Kovacs
1953 had Gonzales, Budge, Riggs and Kovacs
1954 had Gonzales, Sedgman, Segura, Budge, Kovacs and Riggs
1955 had Gonzales, Segura, Kovacs, Riggs, Parker, Budge and Perry
1956 had Gonzales, Segura, Trabert, Hartwig, Parker and Kovacs
1957 had Gonzales, Segura, Rosewall, Trabert, Riggs, Parker and Kovacs
1958 had Gonzales, Hoad, Segura, Trabert, Riggs and Parker
1959 had Gonzales, Hoad, Segura, Cooper, Anderson, Riggs and Parker
1960 had Olmedo, Trabert, Segura, Cooper and Parker
1961 had Gonzales, Sedgman, Gimeno and MacKay
1962 had Buchholz, Segura and MacKay

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

The 1954 tour was a true round-robin, where every player played each other the same number of times.

In 1959, Hoad and Gonzales played each other 28 times, Cooper and Anderson played each other 27 times (they played one match less than the two veteran headliners), but Hoad played Cooper only 20 times, and Gonzales played Anderson 20 times, Hoad played Anderson only 14 times and Gonzales played Cooper 14 times.
Thus, each stop on the tour was provided with a Hoad/Gonzales match which headlined the stop, and gave the impression of a head-to-head between the top two players in the world.

The 1959 World Pro Tour was a 4-man tour, and Gonzales won it.

Results of the 1959 World Pro Tour
1. Pancho Gonzales 47-15
2. Lew Hoad 42-20
3. Ashley Cooper 21-40
4. Mal Anderson 13-48

[Dan Lobb]

Originally Posted by Mustard

At the US Pros in Cleveland:

1952 had Segura, Gonzales, Budge and Kovacs
1953 had Gonzales, Budge, Riggs and Kovacs
1954 had Gonzales, Sedgman, Segura, Budge, Kovacs and Riggs
1955 had Gonzales, Segura, Kovacs, Riggs, Parker, Budge and Perry
1956 had Gonzales, Segura, Trabert, Hartwig, Parker and Kovacs
1957 had Gonzales, Segura, Rosewall, Trabert, Riggs, Parker and Kovacs
1958 had Gonzales, Hoad, Segura, Trabert, Riggs and Parker
1959 had Gonzales, Hoad, Segura, Cooper, Anderson, Riggs and Parker
1960 had Olmedo, Trabert, Segura, Cooper and Parker
1961 had Gonzales, Sedgman, Gimeno and MacKay
1962 had Buchholz, Segura and MacKay



The 1959 World Pro Tour was a 4-man tour, and Gonzales won it.

Results of the 1959 World Pro Tour
1. Pancho Gonzales 47-15
2. Lew Hoad 42-20
3. Ashley Cooper 21-40
4. Mal Anderson 13-48

Here we go again.
The Cleveland fields were clearly weaker than the Australian Pro.
What you have here are the American tour players en route through Cleveland, no depth in the field, plus some old-timers like Budge, Riggs Kovacs, Parker along for the ride.

As I stated above, the preponderance of matches on the 1959 4-man tour consisted of two series, the Hoad/Gonzales series (won by Hoad 15 to 13) and the Cooper/Anderson series (won by Cooper nineteen to eight).

The year-long world tournament championship for 1959 was won by Hoad, with 6 tournament wins, and Gonzales second with 4 tournament wins.