Anyone at 4.0+ without high school or college experience?

[goober]

Originally Posted by heycal

Is it just me, or does anyone else have trouble imagining Michael Chang bowling over NFL linekbackers, Federer as a point guard for the New York Knicks, or Agassi slugging it out with Mike Tyson?

Michael Chang- no way. NFL running backs that are Chang's real height (and there are not that many of them) generally are around 200 lbs and mostly muscle. Being fast around the court doesn't mean you are going to be a star running back. Take a couple hits from some 300 lbs guys and see how you hold up over a course of a game.

Fed- another nada. He has no hops. At his height he would have incredible ball handling and shooting skillz. Just because he is great tennis player doesn't mean he will have these. Probably would be a major defensive liability.

Agassi wouldn't fight Tyson because they would be in different weight classes. This one is semi plausible that he could be a boxer, but a lot would depend on what kind of jaw he has.

[marcl65]

Originally Posted by heycal

Or a 7.0 tactic, regularly employed at the French Open a while back from my understanding.

I think you're referring to Michael Chang's match with Ivan Lendl. IIRC, he was cramping and was doing anything he could to stay in the match including the moonballs and an underhand sidespin serve - it worked by putting Lendl off balance. But I don't think that qualifies as "regularly employed".

[couch]

Originally Posted by marcl65

Interesting, I rarely (if ever) see 4.0 players in my area resort to moonballing. I thought this was strictly a 3.0 and below tactic.

I don't know if you picked up on the fact that sixftlion is a female or not but she is and at women's 4.0 they will resort to moonballs. It's kinda like a 4.0/4.5 version of a male pusher. And she is exactly right; she needs to learn how to beat them before she moves up to 4.5.

[heycal]

Originally Posted by marcl65

I think you're referring to Michael Chang's match with Ivan Lendl. IIRC, he was cramping and was doing anything he could to stay in the match including the moonballs and an underhand sidespin serve - it worked by putting Lendl off balance. But I don't think that qualifies as "regularly employed".

No, I wasn't referrring to that match. I believe there was a period of time where several players used that tactic at the FO. Late seventies/early eighties maybe? Perhaps someone more well versed in tennis history than I can shed some light on this.

[dennis10is]

Originally Posted by heycal

Is it just me, or does anyone else have trouble imagining Michael Chang bowling over NFL linekbackers, Federer as a point guard for the New York Knicks, or Agassi slugging it out with Mike Tyson?

Agassi would not be fighting as a heavy weight. Pound for pound Agassi is strong and his hand speed and eye speed is phenomenal. John Stockton isn't all that different than Federer, similar size, speed, footwork, touch. There have been NFL running back who are short but bulky. Chang would have to bulk up his upper body. You would be a bad linebacker if you plan to run over linebackers, I thought the purpose is to run around them. I assume that you have seen Asian men who lift heavy. Chang changes direction extremely well, he would be tough to tackle. How about Dat Nguyen ex-Dallas Cowboys?

And, my grand mother with a cane could be a point guard for the Knicks. She tried out for the position but Isiah Thomas felt threatened by her so he cut her.

[35ft6]

Originally Posted by shavenstringer

Its not impossible. Some people are very gifted physically and mentally. I have a friend who is a solid 4.5 and only started 3 years ago. He only plays a few times a month. The key for him was a good coach who taught him great fundamentals of the game. If a talented person has a great foundation in tennis they can improved rapidly.

If 3 year olds can spontaneously play the piano the first time they touch it, then it's not outside the realm of possibility that a person can just so happen to be born with a natural understanding of tennis. I've taught people how to hit a top spin forehand in less than 10 minutes. Of course, that doesn't mean they can do it in a match, or even rally, but just that if I toss them a ball while they and I are on the service line, they can hit a top spin forehand, the direction of which they have no control over.

Becoming a 5.0 player even if you start late in life is not that incredible of a feat IMO especially if you're already very coordinated... live someplace with nice weather year round... and play a lot. All I know is that I used to put up ads all the time specifying only 5.0 to 5.5 players need respond, and most, more like almost all, of the self-proclaimed 5.5 players are more like 4.5 and some were even worse. So for the most part, when people state their ratings on these boards, I take it with a grain of salt.

BTW, the number 2 on the D-2 team I played on my freshman year was said to have started playing at age 16. He was 19 when he was two. True? I have no idea. But certainly possible. Not like he was tops even in our league. Solid though. I played number 1 and lost almost every match. Played 2 Americans the whole season. Just came from a 2 year layoff and I sucked.

[35ft6]

Originally Posted by dennis10is

Agassi would not be fighting as a heavy weight. Pound for pound Agassi is strong and his hand speed and eye speed is phenomenal.

He's strong for a tennis player, but in the fight game, you'll suddenly find that he's only slightly above average in strength, even on a pound for pound basis. Guys like Shawn Sherk, Yamamoto Kid, GSP, etc. They'd toss Agassi around like a salad.

There have been NFL running back who are short but bulky. Chang would have to bulk up his upper body. You would be a bad linebacker if you plan to run over linebackers, I thought the purpose is to run around them. I assume that you have seen Asian men who lift heavy. Chang changes direction extremely well, he would be tough to tackle. How about Dat Nguyen ex-Dallas Cowboys?

Chang's football counterpart might be somebody like the late great Barry Sanders. And Chang might be fast for tennis, but he's no Barry Sanders. Barry was around 5'10" but 200 lbs. At some point, you need to be able to run through some very big bodies, even if you can't run OVER them. Chang didn't have that type of mass and it would probably take some illegal drugs to get his body to that point. It's like comparing the WTA to the ATP, it's really fun, but at some point you have to say ATP players are athletic for ATP athletes, no point in comparing the ATP to the NFL. The NFL is full of athletic freaks, the ATP is full of highly trained, very fit tennis players. Big difference.

[Brad Smith]

Originally Posted by dennis10is

Agassi would not be fighting as a heavy weight. Pound for pound Agassi is strong and his hand speed and eye speed is phenomenal. John Stockton isn't all that different than Federer, similar size, speed, footwork, touch. There have been NFL running back who are short but bulky. Chang would have to bulk up his upper body. You would be a bad linebacker if you plan to run over linebackers, I thought the purpose is to run around them. I assume that you have seen Asian men who lift heavy. Chang changes direction extremely well, he would be tough to tackle. How about Dat Nguyen ex-Dallas Cowboys?

And, my grand mother with a cane could be a point guard for the Knicks. She tried out for the position but Isiah Thomas felt threatened by her so he cut her.

You can't just bulk up your upper body when you're 150 pounds to start with and much of that comes from huge legs. Tennis is full of guys under 6 feet tall who are 140-160 pounds and are very fast and can run all day, but the fastest guys in the NFL are all at least 30-40 pounds heavier than that and still just as fast. Guys in the NBA are all much taller and just as fast. Soccer is a sport where small speedy guys can still make an impact and in fact there are a lot of tennis players who grew up playing soccer as well. Most of those soccer players couldn't play in the NFL or NBA either, while a lot of the guys in the NFL/NBA would make great soccer players if they had grown up in a different country. Steve Nash by all accounts was a great soccer player and his brother played on the Canadian national team.

Agassi as a boxer? I don't think so. His father was a boxer for ?Iran? and not the US, Cuba, Mexico, Russia, etc. In other words, that doesn't mean much other than he's tough and has endurance. Agassi probably would have had a better chance to play baseball as a contact hitting second baseman.

Historically tennis has been a sport played by only a small percentage of the world's population, and since it was not an olympic sport until the 90's it was also ignored by countries like Russia, China, and East Germany. That meant that in the 70's and even the 80's there were good but not great athletes who could succeed at the pro level, particularly those players coming from the USA. Things have changed now because of the money available and there are kids all over the world playing tennis along with soccer and basketball as their main sports. Here in the US, though, most of the best athletes are pushed into other sports. Gael Monfils would be playing basketball in the US.

[arnz]

Originally Posted by Brad Smith

You can't just bulk up your upper body when you're 150 pounds to start with and much of that comes from huge legs. Tennis is full of guys under 6 feet tall who are 140-160 pounds and are very fast and can run all day, but the fastest guys in the NFL are all at least 30-40 pounds heavier than that and still just as fast. Guys in the NBA are all much taller and just as fast. Soccer is a sport where small speedy guys can still make an impact and in fact there are a lot of tennis players who grew up playing soccer as well. Most of those soccer players couldn't play in the NFL or NBA either, while a lot of the guys in the NFL/NBA would make great soccer players if they had grown up in a different country. Steve Nash by all accounts was a great soccer player and his brother played on the Canadian national team.

Brad, guys in the NFL and NBA are not as fast as tennis players, they are much, much faster And they can jump much higher. Their level of athleticism is one that no tennis player, even the best tennis players, can match.


I believe that athleticism is a primary requisite for sports like basketball, football and boxing. It is so much less important in tennis. Tennis is a skill game. Yes the fitter you are the better but there is a huge difference between being fit enough to play 5 sets, and being athletic enough to jump high in the air and perform a reverse dunk.

[peter]

Originally Posted by raiden031

It seems like the the majority of young posters are playing high school tennis and that a lot of the elderly posters played college tennis a number of years back. Is there anyone that made it to the 4.0+ levels without either high school or college tennis background? If so, describe your progression through the levels and how much did you have to practice, since you were probably not part of organized tennis with daily practice sessions?

I think I'm at 4.0-4.5 level now. I mostly played for fun during my growing up years (only during the summers) with my two buddies. Probably was at 3.0-3.5 level (at best).

It wasn't until some 6-7 years ago when I came "back" into tennis (after a 17 year break) that I started improving. And I didn't *really* improve (even though I played 1-3 hours/week all year around) until I started attending group lessons with a real coach a couple of years ago (1 hour/week) in addition to playing 2-4 hours a week and also *really* trying to read and try all tips I could find (including reading this message board).

I'll be 40 this year.

[me is bored]

ehh im a texas superchamp been playin for 2 years and 4.0+

[MasterTS]

That would be me..

I actually just played my sisters BF last weekend.. he played #2 varsity singles in highschool.. I tore him up 6-1, 6-1 lol

[Kaptain Karl]

Originally Posted by heycal

I believe there was a period of time where several players used that tactic at the FO. Late seventies/early eighties maybe? Perhaps someone more well versed in tennis history than I can shed some light on this.

The term "moonball" has taken on different meaning for most of today's players. Harold Solomon was infamous in the '70s for suddenly throwing up a lob of 30ft or more. When asked about it, he called it a "Moonball". He did it to throw-off the other guy's timing ... to catch a breath ... to give himself time to towel-off in the middle of a point. Most of the guys were irritated by the tactic ... so, of course, he kept doing it.

- KK

[Jeff-2018]

Very interesting discussion comparing athletes from other sports. Yannick Noah's son plays basketball and is a top NCAA prospect. He's around 6' 8'' I think, now would he make a great tennis player? Probably, but has more athleticism than tennis requires. take Monfils, does the extra speed, jumping ability, explosiveness, balance etc. help him win more tennis matches, maybe, but those skills would be a must to even be on a college basketball team. Tennis is so much more than that. Remember Ben Johnson from the late 80's? The fastest man the world had ever seen, especially the first half of a hundred metre, did 9.79 at 88 olympics and slowed down the last three strides with his hand in the air! Was stripped of everything after getting caught for steroids and tried out for some NFL teams as a kick returner. He was useless. Couldn't catch much, poor lateral movement, no quick thinking, Etc. He tried the CFL in Canada, same result.
I'm an athletic trainer and trained one of the premier receivers in the CFL last year. I'm as fast as he is, stronger in the gym, and I can catch pretty good. I'm also as quick in lateral speed and agility drills. does that mean I can do his job? Not even close, every time he catches a ball (and he has sick hands, unbelievables ability to catch anything thrown within 5 yards of him) he gets hammered into the ground by a guy weighing at least 25 solid pounds heavier. If he was 3-4 inches taller he would be in the NFL.
Now to answer the original question, I'm 37 years old, and first picked up a racket when I was 10. For two years I played 2-3 times a week with about a total of 20 lessons given by a local Nigerian who claimed to be a tennis pro. Because we lived in Africa there were hardly any kids to play so I mostly played adults. We moved to Canada and I didn't play at all untill I was 28. I did play tons of other sports and always trained myself for speed, strength, explosiveness, serious weight training since I was 14. At 28 I had a 1 year old boy and decided to get back into tennis because I wanted him to play. I played at the local club at the most 40 times a year until two years ago, when my son was old enough for me to spend a lot more time on court mostly with him. i joined a serious summer clay court club and was already playing indoors in the winter. Started playing 2-3 times a week in leagues. For the last 10 years have been a serious student of the game taping almost every possible T.V. match and watching technique in slow motion. More than an hour a night on the internet. I even certified level 1 coaching with PTR last summer. All this to say that since playing for the last 10 years, mostly matches, if I won it was because of speed and general athleticism, but I would usually lose because over the course of a match a few highlight reel points don't get you very far. For the last year I made the commitment to practise serving 3 times a week. This has paid off and is the biggest reason for my improvement. I don't know what my level is although a few pros have told me 5.0. Last summer I played on clay against a chap from Texas who was my age. He has been playing state tournaments for the last ten years and has done very well. Clay was his worst surface as he has an attacking game( he's 6'3''). Very agile guy for his height. We played 4 times in one week and I never won but took him to three sets twice. He was, over the course of a match, a more solid ball striker than me. That was so obvious. We both beat a young junior, 17 year old, that week, me in 3 sets and him in 2. This junior is 6'5'' and has spent the last 3 years at Evert academy in Florida at a coast of 45,000 a year. Big strokes but on clay no consistency and mentally weak. Last October I finally beat another 17 year old ranked 12 in 18 and under, although over the preceding 12 months he had beaten me 3 straight times. I hit with a girl twice a week currently, she is ranked #2 in 14 and under, she's 5'9'' and 135 lbs. When we practise the rallys are close, when we play a set she rarely gets more than 2 games. The difference, now that I have competent strokes, is the serve and footspeed.