Surprising stats (1)

[Condoleezza]

While browsing through some tennis forums I found this gem:


1) Chris Evert's winning percentage in 12 months before her loss to 16-year-old Steffi Graf at Hilton Head Island on April 13th, 1986: 93.8 %.

2) Monica Seles's winning percentage in 12 months before the stabbing in Hamburg on April 30th, 1993: 92.1 %.

Seems that 31-year-old Chrissie was at least as good as peak Seles at age 19.
And we can't say that 1985/86 was a clown era. Because that would be denigrating Evert AND Navratilova. And 1992/93 could not be an extremely strong era because that would be admitting that Graf's competiton after the Seles stabbing must have been quite good, too.

Condi

[python]

And we can't say that 1985/86 was a clown era. Because that would be denigrating Evert AND Navratilova.

Quick, name any gram slam winners of that era other than Evert, Navratilova, or Mandlikova. Compare that to today: Williams(2), Henin, Clisters, Sharapova, Mauresmo, etc...

You get the picture.

[Condoleezza]

Originally Posted by python

Quick, name any gram slam winners of that era other than Evert, Navratilova, or Mandlikova. Compare that to today: Williams(2), Henin, Clisters, Sharapova, Mauresmo, etc...

You get the picture.

Yes, how sad!
2.5 all-time greats then, a lot of clowns today ...

Condi

[python]

Plenty of clowns back then too, only they never won any grand slams OR even any tour titles. Those were monopolized by the usual 2 suspects.

Tell you what. I'd rather watch an opening round WTA match today than circa 1983.

[Condoleezza]

Originally Posted by python

Plenty of clowns back then too, only they never won any grand slams OR even any tour titles. Those were monopolized by the usual 2 suspects.

Tell you what. I'd rather watch an opening round WTA match today than circa 1983.

So you think 1982-87 (when Navratilova won 15 of her 18 slams) was a clown era???

Condi

[python]

I don't think Martina was challenged in those days until the semis. The WTA was very weak until the last part of the nineties. Even in the days of Steffi Graf, I'm convinced she didn't face an opponent that could beat her until the finals.

Upsets are a lot more frequent today.

[Condoleezza]

Originally Posted by python

I don't think Martina was challenged in those days until the semis. The WTA was very weak until the last part of the nineties. Even in the days of Steffi Graf, I'm convinced she didn't face an opponent that could beat her until the finals.

Upsets are a lot more frequent today.

But in the 80ies the #3 - #10 players were more often upset by lower-ranked players than today. Only the #1 and #2 almost never were upset.

Maybe the only difference is that we don't have all-time greats like Evert, Navratilova or Graf anymore?

Condi

[python]

Henin & Serena Williams have to go down in history as some of the all-time greats if you look at their achievements objectively. I don't know why you don't think the WTA Tour is deeper than ever. I think it clearly is by any measure.

[Condoleezza]

Originally Posted by python

Henin & Serena Williams have to go down in history as some of the all-time greats if you look at their achievements objectively. I don't know why you don't think the WTA Tour is deeper than ever. I think it clearly is by any measure.

I don't think so.
Players from the Davenport, Mauresmo, Clijsters, Sharapova mould would not have been able to be #1 in, say, 1982-1996 on a constant basis.

Condi

[python]

Well, we'll have to disagree on this one. If you don't think the Serena Williams that held all 4 GS titles at one time wouldn't have pounded Ms. Evert or Ms. Navratilova, then we have radically different concepts of what winning tennis is.

It seems like you just like the 'classic' players and that's fine. Stefan Edberg and Henri Leconte are some of my favorites.

[Condoleezza]

Originally Posted by python

Well, we'll have to disagree on this one. If you don't think the Serena Williams that held all 4 GS titles at one time wouldn't have pounded Ms. Evert or Ms. Navratilova, then we have radically different concepts of what winning tennis is.

It seems like you just like the 'classic' players and that's fine. Stefan Edberg and Henri Leconte are some of my favorites.

Serena won her 4 GS titles in 2002/03.
In those years she lost to Rubin, Schnyder, Shaughessy.

And now tell me with a straight face that peak Navratilova would have lost matches to journeywomen like them ......

Condi

[travlerajm]

I think women's tennis is much stronger and deeper today than it was in the '80s. However, I still think an in-her-prime Navratilova with a modern racquet would be dominating today's gals.

[python]

And now tell me with a straight face that peak Navratilova would have lost matches to journeywomen like them

I'm actually convinced Chanda Rubin (much less Serena or JHH or Mauresmo or Hingis) transported back to the eighties would be a daunting challenge for Martina N. The game was just different back then - less topspin, less velocity, less physical fit players, pretty much less of everything. You ever wonder why few women on the WTA ever came to net? They couldn't volley OR hit any overhead.

How did an old Martina fair against a 14 year Jennifer Capriati? Not well as I recall. Yeah, I bet Serena is quaking in her sequined dress at the thought of playing the likes of Sukova or Carling Bassett. And she'd probably love to beat a young Martina bloody.

[Condoleezza]

Originally Posted by python

You ever wonder why few women on the WTA ever came to net? They couldn't volley OR hit any overhead. ...

Yes, we all know that today's players are far better at the net than in the 80ies ......

Originally Posted by python

How did an old Martina fair against a 14 year Jennifer Capriati? Not well as I recall. ...

No, she only won 6-4 6-2 on Hilton Head's clay.
That is an extremely close result. And clay is Martina's favourite surface ....


(OMG, why do I still discuss with people like that??)


Condi

[python]

Yes, we all know that today's players are far better at the net than in the 80ies

Come on, man. The swinging volley has changed women's tennis. Lots of WTA players play this shot (and well at that) now.

Forget it. You're not sincere in discussing this issue, and I won't change your mind so let's drop it.

[python]

Originally Posted by Condoleezza

Yes, we all know that today's players are far better at the net than in the 80ies ......



No, she only won 6-4 6-2 on Hilton Head's clay.
That is an extremely close result. And clay is Martina's favourite surface ....


(OMG, why do I still discuss with people like that??)


Condi

By the way, I was actually referring to the Wimbledon match where Capriati ousted MN from the quarters.

Like, really, OMG, gosh.

[Condoleezza]

Originally Posted by python

By the way, I was actually referring to the Wimbledon match where Capriati ousted MN from the quarters.

Like, really, OMG, gosh.

A 14-year-old Capriati never ousted Navratilova in Wimbledon.

Condi

[python]

You're right. She was 15 when the Wimbledon match occurred. Your memory starts to go when you are old.

How about addressing my other examples or do you just selectively pick points to nitpick about? If the latter, I won't bother checking this thread anymore.

[Condoleezza]

Originally Posted by python

You're right. She was 15 when the Wimbledon match occurred. Your memory starts to go when you are old.

How about addressing my other examples or do you just selectively pick points to nitpick about? If the latter, I won't bother checking this thread anymore.

I select the most obvious points at first (factual errors - which usually lead to deluded opinions).


The fitness issue (today's players allegedly being so fit)?
Yeah, those unfit gals back in the 80ies. No wonder half of the top players were injured all the time - contrary to today. Oh, wait ....

Serena shaking in her boots?
No, I think Sukova would be shaking in her boots at the thought how Serena would whip her *** with 1984ish equipment ......

Rubin troubling Navratilova?
Maybe. But not Graf. Who is 6-0 H2H against Chanda and had no trouble at all.

Condi

[python]

Fitness: Do you really follow the WTA at all, or are you just trolling? No one keeps stats on percentage of body fat on the tour as a longitudinal number, but it's still true that the WTA players today are much more fit than they were in the past. Chubby players are much less common now than then, and I say that as someone who attends a major tournament every year. Reading your comments, I don't even see an honest attempt to deflect this one. Facts are facts.

Sukova and Serena even with old graphite racquets would still result in a Sukova whipping, or did you totally forget how unathletic Helena really was. (Assuming you've actually seen her play.) Besides in any hypothetical matchup, why on earth would you assume the players would be using old equipment? Serena grooved her strokes using modern equipment. If she played with a woodie, she would hit differently and her game could be different from the banger game it is. Your assumption is rather silly to start with at all.

So now you're using Graf as your champion instead of Martina or Chris? Good choice. At least you've got some solid ground there. A healthy MODERN Rubin would eat Martina's lunch and we both know that deep down inside. Martina does too, which is why she stuck to doubles in her latter years. Heck when she made her comeback initially in singles, it didn't last too long at all. Her opponents were destroying her with heavy topspin and she just couldn't attack at all with any great consistency.