High level play rating. - Page 24

AlpineCadet · 11-08-2009, 10:33 PM

Back from Vegas! I'm going to randomly film two players and put it up on youtube (hopefully) this week. One of the guys will be a college player and the other won't be.

CAM178 · 11-08-2009, 10:49 PM

First post here in forever. Must be the red wine at quarter to 1 am.

Anyway. to answer your query: yes Jolly, NTRP is bogus. It's not a bogus system, but it is highly abused, and thusly about useless. All good players have played '4.5s' who are 5.5 or better. And all good players have played '4.5s' who can't keep the ball in play because of consistency and trying to bang the ball on every shot.

As to playing levels, this is the age-old question, and tough to answer. I've never liked this. While I have seen guys on adjacent courts absolutely crank the ball, I too find that when I have to play them in the next round that I am far from impressed. Unless you're in the fight, it's impossible to judge.

To me, a 5.0 player is highly versed in all aspects of the court. They probably have one good strength, but no glaring weaknesses. Or they have a huge strength(s) (serve + forehand, usually), and a minor weakness.

A 5.5 player is someone with no weaknesses, and tremendous strength, consistency, and accuracy. Most importantly, their game is pretty highly-tuned. They rarely miss, and when pushed, they can either get out of trouble quickly, or transition from defense to offense with one shot.

Ratings are BS. I always. . .ALWAYS go by ranking, or past experience. Talk is cheap, but performance is credibility.

Topaz · 11-09-2009, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAM178

Ratings are BS. I always. . .ALWAYS go by ranking, or past experience. Talk is cheap, but performance is credibility.

But rankings don't tell the whole story, either. I was ranked in women's open singles in my section (floated between 34 and 39 depending on what the other gals were doing). I'm a 3.5.

The abuse of NTRP is really only a minority...since NTRP is based on actual match results and can be tracked throughout seasons, I would say it is a far better indicator than rankings. If you are in an area where not a lot of people play tournaments, you can get lucky, win a few rounds, end up with a ranking that really doesn't mean much at all (as in my own case).

CAM178 · 11-09-2009, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topaz

But rankings don't tell the whole story, either. I was ranked in women's open singles in my section (floated between 34 and 39 depending on what the other gals were doing). I'm a 3.5.

The abuse of NTRP is really only a minority...since NTRP is based on actual match results and can be tracked throughout seasons, I would say it is a far better indicator than rankings. If you are in an area where not a lot of people play tournaments, you can get lucky, win a few rounds, end up with a ranking that really doesn't mean much at all (as in my own case).

True, but we're talking about men's open. I don't know many areas where men's open = 3.5, or where you can walk through draws willy-nilly.

Topaz · 11-09-2009, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAM178

True, but we're talking about men's open. I don't know many areas where men's open = 3.5, or where you can walk through draws willy-nilly.

In places where people don't come out to play tournaments or there aren't many tournaments available, I think it is a very real possibility.

Oh, and I didn't walk through willy-nilly...got a 3.0 in the first round, and then smacked down in the second round by a 5.0 woman (yes Virginia, they do exist!). Took all of 20 minutes I think. But, because I won *one* match, I ended up with a ranking. A very misleading ranking.

Spinz · 11-09-2009, 09:45 AM

The easiest way to find out if someone is (or was, depending upon age and activity level) 5.5+ comes down to whether or not you can find them on an Internet search engine and what you find.

zapvor · 11-09-2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topaz

And what is Jolly paying you to spit out this mindless propaganda?

There is no propaganda from those of us who play USTA and have spent countless posts explaining to you how it works. You can disagree, but to discredit those who have the guts to put it on the line, don't lie about their results, and have it put publicly for all to see...well, that is pretty weak and pathetic. Like your arguments.

I forgot...can you remind us...what's your USTA experience again???

i just have to say, i know topaz, and she plays a lot of USTA stuff, so she knows what shes talking about. the NTRP is fairly accurate as long as people arent sandbagging or abusing it. Like I think i am federer, but when i actually get rated based on my match results via NTRP, i am only 3.0

fruitytennis1 · 11-09-2009, 05:45 PM

I served an ace against a 5.5 guy. He was standing at about the service line and i overhit and it hit his foot. Im not even kidding. I belive a tag does count as an ace on the serve correct???

Tennisman912 · 11-09-2009, 07:27 PM

Beernutz,

The key word here being once. A broken clock is correct twice a day. Point taken, as I know you were being sarcastic.

Fruity,

That would be a service winner, not an ace. An ace would have to be in the box that he did not touch.

Good tennis

TM

Kaptain Karl · 11-10-2009, 01:51 PM

Wow! This topic sure wandered off into the weeds....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabbit

Consistency wins matches. There is a reason that the last 5 guys who set ace records in one match also lost the match they set the record in.

The best insight of the last four pages. Quoted for those who still play (and think) like high school players. (Maybe you'll wake up this time...?)

Quote:

Simply put, the NTRP guidelines for a level are just that. If a guy can run down every ball and put up a lob and win at the 5.0 level, then he does not fit the guideline, but he wins; ergo he is a 5.0.

Bingo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAM178

As to playing levels, this is the age-old question, and tough to answer. I've never liked this. While I have seen guys on adjacent courts absolutely crank the ball, I too find that when I have to play them in the next round that I am far from impressed. Unless you're in the fight, it's impossible to judge.

Amen!

I have "textbook" strokes. I move well for an old guy. I am quicker than most 53 year olds. I used to be known for my "big" serve, but I believe my serve is a better weapon because I am *accurate* with it ... and I can hit four spins off the same toss, so I have disguise going for me.

BUT ... I learned at 48 I cannot hang in the Open Division anymore. I can play with the young guys for one match. But the USTA wants me to do that twice in a day!!! This body won't do that anymore. (Most of you might think, "Duh!" but this was a *stunner* for my ego. It took only two years for me to make the emotional adjustment...!) So ... I figured I'd "do some damage" in the Age Group Divisions....

Guess what? 99% of the guys in the Age Group Draws think just like me. They are playing Age Group only because they've conceded their, age, physical condition (bad knee, back or something of the sort) jobs, families and community obligations ... are preventing them from taking on the young bucks in the Open Draw. These guys give me a very tough game. (But at least they are just as old and out of shape as me, so it doesn't wound my ego so much.)

I haven't been ranked above #21 in Colorado yet. GEEZ!!!

Thanks for indulging me....

Quote:

Talk is cheap, but performance is credibility.

A big "Amen"! And someone finally brought the thread back on Jo11y's topic. The proof is in the playing; not the appearance.

- KK

Tennisman912 · 11-13-2009, 03:43 AM

Apparently, I had some comments sanitized because some don’t like hearing the truth. If you don’t like the comments, ignore them but I can sure think of many other posts more worthy of sanitation. So much for free speech here at TT. I guess the Jollytizers have to approve of all comments before dissenting opinions can be presented. They vow to never let the truth or logic to get in the way of a good argument I guess. You have been warned that common sense is not to be tolerated.

Good tennis for those that play the game.

TM

Andres · 11-13-2009, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fruitytennis1

I served an ace against a 5.5 guy. He was standing at about the service line and i overhit and it hit his foot. Im not even kidding. I belive a tag does count as an ace on the serve correct???

Nope! Not an ace. He or his racquet can't touch the ball to be counted as an ace. It was a mere service winner

fruitytennis1 · 11-13-2009, 05:29 AM

kk thanks for correcting me andres

JoelDali · 11-13-2009, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tennisman912

Apparently, I had some comments sanitized because some don’t like hearing the truth. If you don’t like the comments, ignore them but I can sure think of many other posts more worthy of sanitation. So much for free speech here at TT. I guess the Jollytizers have to approve of all comments before dissenting opinions can be presented. They vow to never let the truth or logic to get in the way of a good argument I guess. You have been warned that common sense is not to be tolerated.

Good tennis for those that play the game.

TM

The censor police here works quickly.

Tennisman912 · 11-13-2009, 11:28 AM

Joe,

Well I guess I popped my cherry as it has never happened before nor had I considered it a possibility before now. More important concerns have always dominated my thoughts I guess.

Good tennis

TM

Sup2Dresq · 11-13-2009, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tennisman912

Joe,

Well I guess I popped my cherry as it has never happened before nor had I considered it a possibility before now. More important concerns have always dominated my thoughts I guess.

Good tennis

TM

Do you use AOL IM? Hit me up at Sup2dresq . I'm curious to what was deleted?

Thanks
Sup

FloridaAG · 11-13-2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sup2Dresq

Do you use AOL IM? Hit me up at Sup2dresq . I'm curious to what was deleted?

Thanks
Sup

Drak gave me the details of the 6-1, 6-1 - funny

Sup2Dresq · 11-13-2009, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FloridaAG

Drak gave me the details of the 6-1, 6-1 - funny

Raffaaaaa! Where was Black Frido and you during my visit?

FloridaAG · 11-13-2009, 12:24 PM

I think I was chained to my desk when you were here.

JoelDali · 11-13-2009, 12:38 PM

Your posts and my posts were instantly deleted as they contained immortal tennis truths.

Shame.

I see much worse here.

I'm done with this thread, moving on to the Land of the Lost thread.

11-08-2009, 10:49 PM	#462
CAM178 Hall Of Fame Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 2,072	First post here in forever. Must be the red wine at quarter to 1 am. Anyway. to answer your query: yes Jolly, NTRP is bogus. It's not a bogus system, but it is highly abused, and thusly about useless. All good players have played '4.5s' who are 5.5 or better. And all good players have played '4.5s' who can't keep the ball in play because of consistency and trying to bang the ball on every shot. As to playing levels, this is the age-old question, and tough to answer. I've never liked this. While I have seen guys on adjacent courts absolutely crank the ball, I too find that when I have to play them in the next round that I am far from impressed. Unless you're in the fight, it's impossible to judge. To me, a 5.0 player is highly versed in all aspects of the court. They probably have one good strength, but no glaring weaknesses. Or they have a huge strength(s) (serve + forehand, usually), and a minor weakness. A 5.5 player is someone with no weaknesses, and tremendous strength, consistency, and accuracy. Most importantly, their game is pretty highly-tuned. They rarely miss, and when pushed, they can either get out of trouble quickly, or transition from defense to offense with one shot. Ratings are BS. I always. . .ALWAYS go by ranking, or past experience. Talk is cheap, but performance is credibility. __________________ Head Microgel Prestige Pro, 4 3/8 (L3), Lux ALU Pwr 16 mains@58 lbs/PSG Orig 16 crosses@61, rubberbanded, & Wilson Pro white overgrip.

11-09-2009, 05:45 PM	#468
fruitytennis1 Rookie Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: I wish i knew Posts: 349	I served an ace against a 5.5 guy. He was standing at about the service line and i overhit and it hit his foot. Im not even kidding. I belive a tag does count as an ace on the serve correct??? __________________ Babolat pure drive cortex with babolat 17g pro hurricane strings If you think your smart turns out your debating with a 13yr old kid.

11-09-2009, 07:27 PM	#469
Tennisman912 Rookie Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 369	Beernutz, The key word here being once. A broken clock is correct twice a day. Point taken, as I know you were being sarcastic. Fruity, That would be a service winner, not an ace. An ace would have to be in the box that he did not touch. Good tennis TM __________________ K95 18x20 --Luxilon big banger ALU power spin

11-13-2009, 03:43 AM	#471
Tennisman912 Rookie Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 369	Apparently, I had some comments sanitized because some don’t like hearing the truth. If you don’t like the comments, ignore them but I can sure think of many other posts more worthy of sanitation. So much for free speech here at TT. I guess the Jollytizers have to approve of all comments before dissenting opinions can be presented. They vow to never let the truth or logic to get in the way of a good argument I guess. You have been warned that common sense is not to be tolerated. Good tennis for those that play the game. TM __________________ K95 18x20 --Luxilon big banger ALU power spin

11-13-2009, 05:29 AM	#473
fruitytennis1 Rookie Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: I wish i knew Posts: 349	kk thanks for correcting me andres __________________ Babolat pure drive cortex with babolat 17g pro hurricane strings If you think your smart turns out your debating with a 13yr old kid.