This Forum...what's it all about

[Bungalo Bill]

Originally Posted by kevhen

I would say a very good recreational player is 3.5. To get to 5.0 it takes many years, and not just recreational hitting. Most recreational players are 2.5 or 3.0. Most club players are 3.5 or 4.0 with the club pros, instructors and college kids being in the 4.5-5.0 range. Top college players are 5.5-6.0 and satellite players are 6.5 with 7.0 being the ATP.

I would say that is a very good general analysis and consistent with what I have found here on the West Coast.

[predrag]

Originally Posted by Bungalo Bill

I would say that is a very good general analysis and consistent with what I have found here on the West Coast.

To clear up any confusion that has arisen recently over what the NTRP
ratings mean exactly, here is the official guide to the ratings
courtesy of Mr. Mike Hoye from the rec.sports.tennis.


1.0 - You stink. You're grabbing the wrong end of the racquet and you
think the green fuzz on the ball has something to do with velcro.

1.5 - You still stink, but you can tie your own tennis shoes and hit a
ball you've got in your hand towards one of the cardinal points
without hitting yourself in the leg.

2.0 - You've taken a few lessons, and the odour is fading. Your strokes
begin to look less like a grandmother waving a flyswatter at a moth
and more like you're actually trying to accomplish something.

2.5 - This is when you start going to the club round robins, and
discover that, despite your previous misconceptions, you still stink.
You're doing alright if you're fed the ball, but everyone else is
really just being nice to you until they can win the point without
embarrasing you.

3.0 - Same as 2.5, but with more topspin.

3.5 - The light is dawning. Your feet begin to move more efficiently.
They do not remain glued to the baseline, but begin to move
around the court, even up to the net on those occasions that you
feel like walking back to the fence to pick up the ball that passed
you.

4.0 - Your discovery of how to hit a serve and overhead allows you
to be one of the people politely destroying 2.5 players on
round robin night.

4.5 - The ball goes where you will it to go, with authoritative pace
and spin. You are king. You are undefeated on Round Robin night,
and wish test your mettle with a greater challenge. You ask
to play a match with your club's top players and after getting
your *** whomped realize that, in fact, you stink. "But," the
Div 1 team says magnanimously, "you're getting better."

5.0 - Around now, pretty much everyone else at your club stinks.
League play is the only way to get a decent match, and you're
starting to think pretty well of yourself.

5.5 - You crush some 5.0 punk in a league match, and tell him
he stinks.

6.0 - Tennis scholarship. You go to Stanford, play for the university
team, and have some sixteen year old prodigy bagel you in
a practice set and tell you that you stink.

6.5 - You are offered a berth in a local ATP satellite, and lose out
in the pre-draw round robin stage. One of the people in the
audience played tennis with you back in round robin, and he
tells you that you looked pretty good out there, but your
backhand still stinks.

7.0 - The pro level. If you're Brenda Schultz-McCarthy, your forehand
stinks worse than Edberg's. You got to this level by yelling
at referees or puking your guts out and beating quick-serving
Spaniards.
You've got a terrible serve, an irritating grunt, the best/worst
face/legs/***/boobs in professional sport and a wife who slaps
officials when she disagrees with line calls. You've got no
control, you're undisciplined and aren't willing to work hard
and it would be great if you could just string together three
weeks of consistent tennis. You don't know for sure how many
miles there are to a kilometer, but you're tanking because you
don't want to lose your number one ranking. You've been stabbed
by a German weirdo, and took the number one ranking unfairly
because of that. You got your *** kicked at the U.S. Open,
and God was with you the whole time, but he wasn't helping you
out much. You might be gay, but it's being vehemently debated,
and probably nobody really cares anyway. You don't deserve
the ranking you got, 'cause you only played on one surface, but
that's OK since a drunk drove a Chevy into your kneecaps. Your
girlfriend is suing you because you're rich and she's been given
the boot, but your lesbian relationship with another touring pro
is going just fine, thanks for asking. You stop claiming that
image is everything when you realise that it's covering for the
fact that you're a loser who can't win a tournament and decide to
play like you mean it. Your tongue wags when you're playing.
You're boring to watch. John McEnroe and Bud Collins are saying
inane things about you on international television. You're
exciting to watch. You're determined, but play a moon-balling,
catch-and-fetch game that might win matches but is esthetically
displeasing and you're a little on the plump side besides. And
people on rec.sport.tennis are still debating whether or not
you stink.

[johnthecoach]

Hey predrag,
Thats the system we have in Spain..its totally unbelievable and nobody understands it unless you are Moya,Ferrero,Nadal,Robredo,Costa, etc, and then it doesn't matter

[kevhen]

Yes, that pretty much sums of the sport of tennis. We all stink, no matter what level we are, and even more so after a humid match.

[Mark S. Hogan]

BB, I'm sure you know what I'm saying.

Actually, I'm pretty good in an argument too and you'll probably see that.

Be well.

[Bungalo Bill]

Originally Posted by Tim Tennis

Different strokes for different folks.

Bungalo Bill, he does get fired up when he feels there is some mis-information about the game. I personally don't think he should waste his time arguing with them. I think he should just let it go, hell, you are not going to change their mind anyhow. I feel like some of the guys on this forum are a little jealous ( and there are a lot of very sharp, knowledgeable people from all over the world. ) and would love to bring down the top dog.

If you ever go back and read his posts, he is the master at explaining concepts, putting things in such a way that if you think about it just a little, it will all make sense.

I think that BB should go back and categorize all his posts and publish a book. I would buy it. What should we call it?

Posting Ugly or Winning Posting
Think Before Posting or Post To Win
How To Win Friends and Influence Dummies

I better stop here before I get too carried away.

You got to love the game.

LOL, I concur! I like the title "How to win Friends and **** off Dummies." There is never a dull moment around here.

[Kaptain Karl]

I like Hoye’s Ratings Guide more than the “Official” one. That was great. I laughed more at each stage. Thanks, predrag.

- KK

[Tim Tennis]

Predrag,

That was fantastic. I will have to print that out and give a copy to the local pro. He will love it.

You got to love the game.

[predrag]

Originally Posted by Tim Tennis

Predrag,

That was fantastic. I will have to print that out and give a copy to the local pro. He will love it.

You got to love the game.

It is an old one, posted probably around 1997 or so. 7.0 rating needs updating to
reflect the current happenings in ATP and WTA.

Regards, Predrag

[Mahboob Khan]

Great job, Bungalow Bill. Keep it up. Our job is to spread the true information about the game to our readers (in plain, simple language). Great indeed, and do not lose your heart. No reflection on this forum, I used to resist idiots, they used to cause me lots of pains, but now I have found a way to ignore them and to enjoy them. At times I feel, it is because of them that I am a tennis professional. A tennis professional should be like a spounge absorbing all good and bad remarks. You are remarkable Bill, and you are not alone.

[johnthecoach]

Hey I started this discussion, and I think its been well used up.
For all us " idiots " (thank you Mahboob Khan)
out there working hard to help the other idiots who can't walk properly, cannot last more than 30 minutes on the court, but love every minute of it, for all those who cannot be told more than 2 different things about any stroke at the same time, otherwise they will fall over, those who don't want to listen to you, just go out there and play, those who's aspirations go no further than hitting with their wives once a week, those who only play two times a year because work doesn't allow, those who can't afford your fee, but you give them your time anyway...sob sob..that's 50% of my tennis life..and I love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So endth this post..........please

ps: rained today, first time in 5 months, so have some sympathy :P

[jun]

johnthecoach,

although you bring an interesting point. You have shown no sign of excellent coach. First of all, why would you say you are an idiot? M Khan wasn't referring at you. If you think you have good quailities, display them and prove them wrong. You can still be humber and display that you know your stuff.

Second of all, don't you think even at age of 60, the person can still incorporate important fundamentals of good strokes? It doesn't matter if the person has by pass surgery, or whatever, they can still work on hitting low to high, fixed wrist etc etc.

If I were a coach, and the student simply wanted to HIT the ball with me, I would tell him to find a hitting partnenr because I am there to work on his game, not to just feed balls. Maybe it will be different if my life line was dependent on it. But that's the attitude i have when taking lessons.

B. Bill and M Khan provides good tips. and general drill that a person can use. No one has ever said "I am in such such condition". So everyone else is assuming s/he is in fine condition to do drills or whatever.

From the intellectual side that they have shown, they will be able to apply their skills to special conditions...

[johnthecoach]

To display signs of " excellent coach" is not possible over the web.
The only way is to see that is watch that person working on a court...words on the internet can mean anything.
How do you know that everthing you read here is not copy/pasted from somewhere else...do you all know each other???
How do I know that you Jun are not some weirdo just on a site having fun, how do you know if I am really from Barcelona???
How do you know that the all seeing Bill is what he says he is?
So lets leave it at that...we will beg to differ..I have taught in school years before tennis, and the greatest thing I learnt is that the people we teach are all different and we the teachers are all different, and a good teacher can teach, but a better teacher knows how to teach people differently.
Maybe the real prob we have here is the difference in cultures.I am London born, Uk and Spanish trained, you are all from the USA.
You guys are different from us, thats a fact. I have coached the odd USA player and they are very different from coaching a Spanish guy.
I have a pupil of mine who plays in your University tennis and he says playing in the states compared to the Uk is like" chalk to cheese"..sorry thats a very English phrase meaning " black to white"
Thats not to say your right and we are wrong, but its the difference that makes us so unique.
So anytime anyone of you finds themselves in Barcelona, come and look us up, ad maybe you will all learn something, for better or worse, up to you to decide.
I spent 2 months working with Dr Allen Fox back in 1989, and it was a joy and I gained so much from him.And what I really learnt was his ability to get the best out of players by BEING DIFFERENT TO EACH OF THEM....Thats the secret to great teaching, sorry but some of you out there have alot to learn.
Off Air...no more time for this....if your around sunny Spain..
e-mail
johnthecoach50@hotmail.com

[Tim Tennis]

Well said John, we love ya.

[Kaptain Karl]

From johnthecoach:
How do you know that everthing you read here is not copy/pasted from somewhere else?

Yikes!!! Who have you been talking to???

[KK hurries to finish (ever so slightly) changing the words as he re-types Tilden’s Match Play And The Spin Of The Ball. KK’s working title: Great Match Play: Philosophies By KK.]

Whaddya think? Will it sell?

- KK

[Mahboob Khan]

Please re-read my post. I never meant any of you as an idiot.

Yes, it is possible that people learn differently. But there has to be a standard method of coaching, however, when that standard fails then the coach should take use of another method e.g. spanish method, Swedish method, LTA/UK method, Australian method, ITF method, and/or PTR/USPTA method. A coach should keep on finding a methodology a particular student will understand. Yes, methodology could be different but that does not mean that you are teaching a different stroke. The stroke has to be biomechanically correct.

If you cannot teach an old dog new tricks, at least you can polish the existing ones. I understand, that perhaps a 70 years old cannot hit topspin drive backhand (because he has used continental grip for his BH for 55+ years). Teaching a drive backhand to this old man will be a waste of time. However, if I feel that he is chopping down on his slice, I will teach him the correct slice, I will improve his slice. I will say, "you have excellent chop shot which is a good foundation for a slice. Let's start from high-to-low, and then take off a bit so that the racket head finish above the level of the net. Within minutes this old man will be hitting with good slice backhand.

Mr. Johnthecoach, you are born in UK and trained in UK and Spain? Well, I was born in Nawapara, Vehari, Pakistan. Learned to play tennis in Pakistan and abroad, did my certification from the United States (PTR), Certification from ITF, Australian methodology, Nick Bollettieri coaching system, Dennis van der Meer Coaching System, attended courses on Spanish methodology, Swedish methodology, and just about every other methodology available. Plus my own 24 years+ experience with all sorts of players you mentioned. And, I was in Barcelona/Spain in 1995 attending ITF Worldwide Coaches Workshop; I was in Bangkok in 2001 attending ITF Worldwide Coaches Workshop, was in Dubai in 2002 attending ITF Asian Coaches Workshop, and I am going to New Delhi this month to attend the ITF Asian Coaches Workshop there from Oct 11-17, development high performance coaches are in attendance from all over the world. Were you there? Do you know Migael Crespo who works for ITF? Do you know Alberto Riba who works for the Spanish Federation? Go to them, they will tell you something about Mahboob Khan of Pakistan. About 20 years ago I thought that I was the best coach, about 25 years later, I have said on this forum that "you cannot fully and completely teach a stroke". How wrong I was some 20 years ago. You cannot beat the knowledge and experience.

In order to support an argument, it is ok to refer to an authority, it is ok to even copy and paste it. Are we not supposed to read and learn? When I write on this forum, I do not write from a book because books are very complicated and my English is very simple.

Sir, continents are coming together .. civilizations are on the path of collision so that they must know each other, and the knowledge has no boundaries. You seem to be new to this forum, and I like you. If you would like to know more about me, my tennis, my religion which is Islam, please email me: makhan67@hotmail.com. Welcome on board, John the Coach!

[jun]

johnthecoach-
I didn't mean any offense so hopefully none will be taken.

Anyways,
I agree that an excellent coach is able to adapt to indivisual needs better than anyone. I think it's possible over the web, certainly not as easy as in person.
If there is anyone who's out here and trying to disguise who they are, I will give them benefit of doubt. I hope there are some credibility left in this world.

I believe one can display his exceptional knowledge and coaching skill over the web. Good coach will always be able to express his opinion and fact in a very easy-to-understand and concise manner. S/he will be able to describe the techniques in the same manner.

Of couse, the coach won't be able to fix or change drill to meet the indivisual need w/o seeing him/her playing. When a player looks for an answer to his/her problem, the coach can make suggestion and give advice on what kind of drills would help him / her to fix the problem, even over the web. And that's why many people do out here. And it's been proven that it has worked well ever since.

And, I don't really buy your "you are different from us" thing. I am from south korea, I have learned tennis in Korea and U.S. And Look at the tour, are coach and player always from the same country? I don't think so.

[JohnThomas1]

This forum is titled "Tennis Tips/Instruction" and as far as that goes nobody provides it better than Bill, he is a genuine superstar. He might be a bit straightforward for some, but i have never had a prob with him. If he pointed out he thought i had made a misinformed comment then i would read what he said with interest and very likely be a better technician for it.

[Kaptain Karl]

From Khan:
...my English is very simple.

No. My Spanish is simple.
I wish my Spanish was “as simple” as your English, MK. You’re doing just fine.

- KK

[Bungalo Bill]

Originally Posted by johnthecoach

To display signs of " excellent coach" is not possible over the web.
The only way is to see that is watch that person working on a court...words on the internet can mean anything.
How do you know that everthing you read here is not copy/pasted from somewhere else...do you all know each other???
How do I know that you Jun are not some weirdo just on a site having fun, how do you know if I am really from Barcelona???
How do you know that the all seeing Bill is what he says he is?
So lets leave it at that...we will beg to differ..I have taught in school years before tennis, and the greatest thing I learnt is that the people we teach are all different and we the teachers are all different, and a good teacher can teach, but a better teacher knows how to teach people differently.
Maybe the real prob we have here is the difference in cultures.I am London born, Uk and Spanish trained, you are all from the USA.
You guys are different from us, thats a fact. I have coached the odd USA player and they are very different from coaching a Spanish guy.
I have a pupil of mine who plays in your University tennis and he says playing in the states compared to the Uk is like" chalk to cheese"..sorry thats a very English phrase meaning " black to white"
Thats not to say your right and we are wrong, but its the difference that makes us so unique.
So anytime anyone of you finds themselves in Barcelona, come and look us up, ad maybe you will all learn something, for better or worse, up to you to decide.
I spent 2 months working with Dr Allen Fox back in 1989, and it was a joy and I gained so much from him.And what I really learnt was his ability to get the best out of players by BEING DIFFERENT TO EACH OF THEM....Thats the secret to great teaching, sorry but some of you out there have alot to learn.
Off Air...no more time for this....if your around sunny Spain..
e-mail
johnthecoach50@hotmail.com

I think you can show how good you are as a coach anywhere. Once you got the knowledge, can show good organization and comunication skills and can prove the knowledge - you can coach.

Nothing does a better job in testing your communication skills then writing. Writing forces you to organize your thoughts, it forces you to reread your information to see if it made sense. You can't be lazy with your writing otherwise thousands of people reading the post will go out and try the wrong thing or do it the wrong way because you didnt write clearly.

I have coached at Vic Braden's tennis college and learned a ton from the man. I dont agree with everything he says, but the fundamental research is outstanding. I am a USPTA Certified pro, I have played college tennis, I am beginning to write articles for John Yandell and I post here regularly and enjoy it very much. The information I have provided over the years is worthless unless players truly benefited from it.

With that said, I woudn't be able have any of the above mentioned credentials if I didnt also back it up with my play on the court and my ability to coach players.

I honestly am looking forward to read your information so I can continue learning and growing. You are in a different part of the world and have seen and learned different things.

If you want I will even go as far as saying "I am sorry for offending you." I will try to be more careful just so you can feel comfotable here and post your information to help all of us here.