Racquet Acceleration

[NamRanger]

After watching a whole lot of groundstrokes and serves, it seems that pros really don't swing too fast before contact, but they seem to accelerate alot faster when they make contact. Anyone else notice this trend? It's like they are "finding" the ball first before they accelerate through it.



Roddick isn't the best example, but pretty much all pros that I've watched so far have this in common.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-D32RwsD_w


As you watch Roddick from his backswing to moving the racquet foward, you'll notice the racquet really doesn't take off till slightly before it makes contact with the ball, when the racquet DOES make contact, then it really starts to accelerate, much faster then the racquet's initial foward acceleration into the ball.



Here's a video of Tommy Haas practicing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDiNR...elated&search=


Notice how you can easily track when the racquet is moving foward initially, but when Haas makes contact, the racquet sort of blurs out as he starts accelerating through the ball.

[Bagumbawalla]

There is a lot of what I would call anecdotal or even superstitious thinking when it comes to sports. Tennis is one of the most intrenched with mystic explainations and arcana-- secrets the pros know and are kept from ordinary humans-- and if we could steal those secrets (like fire from the gods) we might ascent to the status of pros, ourselves.

Part of the problem is our lack of ability to describe the difficult motions and the inner feelings associated with them. Even good instructors resort to explainations that are not always sound physics. What people think they see, or feel is not always accurate.

Obviously there is acceleration in a tennis stroke, just as in a baseball swing or in golf, cricket, badminton, squash...

The very idea of acceleration is that it accelerates-- gets faster and faster, starting from 0 and accelerating (like a rocket) to 50, 60, miles per hour in a groundstroke.

The best groundstrokes are smooth and flowing. Ther are no sudden changes, shifts in direction or microsecond boosts of speed.

What you may be noticing is that there are, indeed, different types of players who do have different stroking techniques.

Some take a long, full swing that seems to build speed more gradually to its final impact. Others (still smooth and without hitches) will tend to "power" the racket through the ball and the force seems (to the eye) to come all at once and at the last moment.

Many clay court players have the former style, they have more time to be fluid and take a full stroke. Fast court players, or players who hit "on the rise" will tend to the later style. Agassi is a good example of the second type.

The important thing is for you to find a style that fits your physique, your playing surface, your strength and ability level and so forth. More than the discovery of hidden secrets, PRACTICE, consistence, and focusing on the basics while perfecting your technique are the keys to advanciing your game.

Good luck,

B

[XhotXEX1290]

Hit the ball and than swipe around your shoulder.

[NamRanger]

Originally Posted by Bagumbawalla

There is a lot of what I would call anecdotal or even superstitious thinking when it comes to sports. Tennis is one of the most intrenched with mystic explainations and arcana-- secrets the pros know and are kept from ordinary humans-- and if we could steal those secrets (like fire from the gods) we might ascent to the status of pros, ourselves.

Part of the problem is our lack of ability to describe the difficult motions and the inner feelings associated with them. Even good instructors resort to explainations that are not always sound physics. What people think they see, or feel is not always accurate.

Obviously there is acceleration in a tennis stroke, just as in a baseball swing or in golf, cricket, badminton, squash...

The very idea of acceleration is that it accelerates-- gets faster and faster, starting from 0 and accelerating (like a rocket) to 50, 60, miles per hour in a groundstroke.

The best groundstrokes are smooth and flowing. Ther are no sudden changes, shifts in direction or microsecond boosts of speed.

What you may be noticing is that there are, indeed, different types of players who do have different stroking techniques.

Some take a long, full swing that seems to build speed more gradually to its final impact. Others (still smooth and without hitches) will tend to "power" the racket through the ball and the force seems (to the eye) to come all at once and at the last moment.

Many clay court players have the former style, they have more time to be fluid and take a full stroke. Fast court players, or players who hit "on the rise" will tend to the later style. Agassi is a good example of the second type.

The important thing is for you to find a style that fits your physique, your playing surface, your strength and ability level and so forth. More than the discovery of hidden secrets, PRACTICE, consistence, and focusing on the basics while perfecting your technique are the keys to advanciing your game.

Good luck,

B

I've looked at alot of pro strokes in slow motion. They really do not accelerate that fast untill contact, then the racquet explodes through the ball. Even Agassi, who you say "forces" the ball seems to guide his double bend into the ball, then accelerate through. It's almost as though every pro is looking to "hold" the ball, and then "release" by pushing through it.


Because truly, the racquet doesn't move the ball, the player does it. At contact, the wrist stays back along with the racquet, as the player pushes the double bend with his shoulder and waist to lift the ball, thus allowing the player's weight to fully transfer into the ball. That is, if we're talking about modern technique here. So really the racquet doesn't "accelerate" in the way most people think it does.


That's why pros can create so much pace now without a huge backswing. Weight transfer is all you really need to get the ball moving, or so it seems to me.

[Bagumbawalla]

If it somehow helps you to visualize the stroke in that manner- and it helps your game, then I wish you all the best. As I said, most inages and descritiptions in tennis are only approximations of reality. Some suggestions work better for some than others.

Having said that, we have, about once a month, someone write on this topic (a shill?). Feel free to click on "search", above and read the general consensus.

Good luck with your game,

B

B

[tlm]

You are exactly right namranger, it is what the pro's do with the modern forehand.As far as what bagumbawalla is saying, i dont know what he is talking about.I would like to know how images+desccriptions are only approximations of reality?Reality is exactly what the videos show, the slo mo video of roddick with the windshield wiper forehand is fact not fiction.

Some people here dont want to see it, because this is the way Oscar Wegner describes it+not to many hear want to admit he is right.Plus there are a lot of old school players on this site that were taught to use a continental or eastern grip with early take backs+ flat strokes.I dont think they understand the modern forehand or they dont want to admit it.

Some of the best players i see at my club hit flat with the more conventional strokes+are excellent players, i am not saying that this method doesnt work it can be very effective.But that is not the way the pro's hit, the grips are sw+western with a lot of topspin+ a lot of times with the windshield wiper style follow through.

This is no secret just watch the many videos available, they dont use the old school ways of taking back early+ follow through is not towards the net+ they do not get the racquet moving fast early in the swing like the older players did.I really think that a lot of the instructors on this site cant admit that the game has evolved+it is not the way they have been teaching for years+they cant admit that the new way is better!!!!!!

[es-0]

In the Roddick footage it appears to me that the racquet is moving at the same speed throughout the actual stroke, if it appears any faster closer to contact it is due to the fact the racquet is changing orientation so it can strike the ball squarely.

Just my observation...

[widmerpool]

i can't think of a pro player in the history of tennis who didn't "accelerate" through every shot.

when you serve, you are at rest, (0). you want to get to maximum speed, (1). So to get from 0 to 1, you accelerate.

same with throwing a baseball, kicking a soccer ball, shooting a puck...

i'd like to know how the "modern" game has improved on the Rosewall backhand.

racquet and string tech has allowed some wiggle room but it's the same game.

[TheShaun]

roddick isn't even looking at or anywhere near the ball when he makes contact. wow!

[tlm]

Nobody said that they dont accelerate through the swing, but they dont try to get the racquet moving as fast as possible before the contact.The point is they definitely accelerate through the swing, that is what we are saying that most of the speed of the swing is right after contact. Another thing to check out in the roddick video is he is still taking the racquet back after the ball has bounced, in the conventional style of teaching your supposed to get the the racquet back earlier.

Another thing it shows is how roddick lifts up, not towards the net, he actually leaves the ground+his follow through is to the side not forward.Remember being told to stay down on groundstrokes + follow through towards the net, doesnt seem like roddick follows the old school teachings.

You mean to tell me you can watch videos of the old boys + tell me that thier swings look the same? Even watching tennis from the 80's it looks like they are in slomotion+ it is a hell of a lot more than just the strings, it is modern technique.It is not the same game by any means, the women hit the ball harder than the old boys did.

[Ross K]

Originally Posted by tlm

.Plus there are a lot of old school players on this site that were taught to use a continental or eastern grip with early take backs+ flat strokes... This is no secret just watch the many videos available, they dont use the old school ways of taking back early+ follow through is not towards the net+ they do not get the racquet moving fast early in the swing like the older players did.

Are you then saying that modern technique=setting up at the last possible second (ie, NOT being prepared and set up, either on your bh wing or fh side, asap - or as soon as you realise which side incoming ball is coming to)? I do remember Wegner's completely different method of counting in your head after the ball-bounce and delaying the hit (like... "1-2-3-4-HIT!"... something like that?)... is this what you advocate?

[tricky]

Here's a video of Tommy Haas practicing

That's one sexy beast. Dang.

I do remember Wegner's completely different method of counting in your head after the ball-bounce and delaying the hit

The funny thing is, I don't necessarily disagree with Wegner on his point. From the little I've read, he's really into cadence and rhythm. In that regard, it makes sense to find a methodical rhythm with the rally.

I don't think Wegner was against setting up the unit turn early. I think he was more concerned with the hitting arm moving out of sync, thereby causing people to mishit or "arm" the shot. But I think if you concentrate on measuring and triggering the stroke with your non-dominant arm, that shouldn't be a problem. His counting would help you do that.

The racquet acceleration stuff is tricky, because what you really want is to have a very, very relaxed backswing. Initially, a very relaxed backswing has to be slow because you're still learning to trace the backswing with your shoulder. But as you get better at recognizing balls and getting a stronger grip, the backswing moves quicker. It'll also grow more compact.

In terms of forward swing acceleration, some of it is a product of a relaxed
wrist laying back, and a lot of it reflects how well you swung out of a "slot." The latter defines the "length" of the line you pull toward the ball. If you got a very long line (which isn't that discernable to the naked eye), you'll get more acceleration.

Verdasco's straight-arm FH is a really good example. He has a relaxed, almost "slow" backswing, and then as he's swinging through the ball, it accelerates and sounds like a cannon. He's also excellent at lifting his whole body toward the ball in classic sit-and-lift fashion.

[D-man]

The secret is, that as you accelerate you want to reach the position of the point of contact in such a way that it ends up that your whole upper body is moving as one unit to push the ball. The idea of acceleration can confuse you into trying to accelerate parts of your body out of sync with the upper torso as a whole, particularly the three hinges that connect the ball to the main moving mass of the torso, which should be the source of power (the wrist, the elbow, and the shoulder are the hinges). Thus although at times the parts in-between the hinges may be moving/accelerating at different speeds, they synchronize at the point of contact and the body takes over virtually "pushing" the ball from the waist. This is why timing is such a big part of strokes and makes them tricky to learn. But it's when you lose sight of the goal that you get lost in a sea of complexities. To put it as succinctly as possibly, emphasizing racket-head speed can cause you to lose sight of the fact that the whole upper body powers the ball; better to call it "upper-body speed."

Watch the Roddick forehand video above and contemplate as it progresses how various parts get moving such that at contact everything is pushing together as one unit. I, personally, do not believe in some magical "super-acceleration" at the very moment of contact, and though I do think that there is a significant degree of acceleration just before contact, I think it also must be considered in the context of one smooth overall progression followed by the deceleration.

I also see four main ideas from which the body push is developed. One is momentum transfer such that all energy is transferred from the inside out, leading to number two: energy travels internally to externally, emphasizing internal body rotation, because for the body to push out one way it has to collapse back the alternate way, and the third is the idea of keeping a fixed structure in the upper body so that energy and directional control is not diluted. The third is why you almost always see the shoulders constantly kept in a straight line. The fourth is synchronization at contact, which I just explained. All of these ideas keep you from trying to add power through a quick movement of a hinge (wrist/elbow/shoulder) which only dilutes power, hurts the joints, and loses control.

[origmarm]

I came to a very similar conclusion as the OP having watched Roddick in particular recently. Having thought about it a fair bit however I think its a form of "optical illusion" if you will that gives this impression of last minute acceleration.
Personally I think its similar to what D-Man is describing here in that the swing is actually a gradual smooth acceleration but that the rest of the body has also got to full acceleration just before the point of contact. When the rest of the body reaches this point it gives the impression of a sudden acceleration to the swing. I also thing that the wrist changes the angle also at that point further reinforcing this. So its not the fact that he suddenly accelerates the swing, just everything else gets in on the act at that point

[Go Tennis]

You increase acelleration BEFORE the contact with the ball JUST THINKING TO HIT THE BALL WITH MORE ACCELERATION. And don't forget to find the distance to the ball, then swing relax, but fast and without hesitation. When you play tennis your mind need to be 110% thinking in every step of your attitude in court. You ONLY relax your mind when the ball is out.
Tip: Doing what I said above, you will ALWAYS look at the ball until the contact.

[tlm]

Ross K, i never said anything about setting up at the last second,you should set up as quickly as possible.In the video of roddick it is obvious he is set up early, that is one of the points he has plenty of time+ he is set up but his swing is not going all the way back untill after the bounce, which i have been told many times here that the pro's never do that.

Even though there are many videos just like this one showing that exact thing.The swing is timed so it is one fluid motion+ it is not an optical illusion that the racquet is started slow+accellerates more right at+ after contact.What is so hard to understand about this? Do you not trust your own eyes?

[origmarm]

Originally Posted by tlm

Even though there are many videos just like this one showing that exact thing.The swing is timed so it is one fluid motion+ it is not an optical illusion that the racquet is started slow+accellerates more right at+ after contact.What is so hard to understand about this? Do you not trust your own eyes?

Sorry, reading that again I wasn't clear at all. I think the racquet head does indeed accelerate and is clearly moving faster, I just don't think its a result of the swing portion of the stroke i.e. I think he is exerting the same pressure through his arm for the entirety of the swing but the addition of other portions of his body to the motion produces the acceleration of the head

[Narcissist]

Maybe this analysis of Ivanovic's forehand might hold some answers:

http://www.tennisclip.com/media/106/...sis__Forehand/

If I remember there is a trace of her raquet path with the colour matching racquet speed and stuff like that.

I'm no expert but in slo-mos *some* pros look like they suddenly whip the wrist through causing big acceleration a bit like the wrist snap on serve.

[Ross K]

Originally Posted by tlm

Ross K, i never said anything about setting up at the last second,you should set up as quickly as possible.In the video of roddick it is obvious he is set up early, that is one of the points he has plenty of time+ he is set up but his swing is not going all the way back untill after the bounce, which i have been told many times here that the pro's never do that.

Even though there are many videos just like this one showing that exact thing.The swing is timed so it is one fluid motion+ it is not an optical illusion that the racquet is started slow+accellerates more right at+ after contact.What is so hard to understand about this? Do you not trust your own eyes?

Yo, chill, matey. All I did was ask a question!?...

[kimizz]

This is for the OP. Im not sure if I understood your point clearly. This is how I understood it. You sayd the racquet really takes off just a bit before contact and continues this rapid movement after contact. Meaning that the the racquet acceleration happens very late.

Isnt this exactly what B-bill talks about when he writes about the role of elbow. Meaning that the elbow leads the forward swing for a while, after that the racquet gets in front of the body in a whippy motion. The racquet definetly accelerates just before contact but it isnt a deliberate action by the player...its just the racquet following the elbow. Maybe someone can explain it better, writing in english is really hard

To TLM, who are these old school instructors in this site. I think I have a modern forehand and its all thanks to the ppl that post their tips to TW.