Staying down on groundstokes?

[kimba]

Is the key to power and consistancy with ground stokes staying down on them? what does this mean exactly?

[Solat]

staying down in essence refers to you keeping your body lower thru the stroke so as to get more penetration with the swing, if you lift with your body then you can tend to lift your racquet which will take pace off your stroke

[emcee]

This isn't the case for waist-high topspin shots though, is it? Cause the upward motion helps you get spin. I think this is true for flat shots, approach shots, low shots, etc...i.e. closed/square stance shots.

[smoothtennis]

The time when lifting up is a sin in tennis, is when the kinetic transfer of energy is broken when the body, and legs, expend their energy before transfrering that energy into the ball via the arm.

What the means in laymans terms, is that usually, at the hacker level, The legs and body come up first, followed by the arm, which is stuck on it's own to generate the power. It also complicates the timing of the stroke.

[MasturB]

Pros jump all the time and generate 80-95 mph forehands.

I remember Federer hitting a 102 mph forehand against Nadal at Wimbledon last year, he did it in mid-air. Insanity.

[tlm]

The key to power is rotation+lifting up, staying down takes away from your power.Check the next thread out on acceleration+ the video of roddick were he leaves the ground.

[burosky]

Staying down on groundies is sound advise that has been passed on for as long as I can remember. It promotes good balance, it helps to make the shot more consistent, etc... Things have changed since. Although this advise still works, as you get into the higher skill levels, you will have to change this way of hitting in order to keep up. I think the main problem with this advise is the inherent problem with recovering after the shot. The problem isn't as obvious if you are playing against people who doesn't hit with a lot of pace. At the higher skill level, where pace is expected, this problem can easily be seen.

I'm assuming when you say stay down on the shot you meant both feet planted on the ground with the back foot "swinging" forward as you make contact and follow-through as a result of your weight transfer. This was how I learned and am still getting used to the new way to improve my footwork. If you want to get an idea about the new way, pay careful attention to the current pros. They very seldom stay on the ground when they hit groundies. Most give the appearance of "jumping" because they are usually off the ground. This is just a result of the footwork they are using.

One site I found that illustrates this nicely and shows you how to do it as well is http://www.jezgreen.com/cuttingedge/index.htm. Set your pointer on the cutting edge menu and check out the powerstep. With this move, it allows you to recover quicker because you don't have that "extra step" I mentioned earlier as you transfer your weight forward. I've been trying to make this second nature to the way I hit. It's been difficult because for years I've stayed down for my groundies.

Just a disclaimer. I am in no way affiliated with the website I mentioned. I just thought it might be helpful to the folks here.

[ps60]

i jump almost 70-80% time. in at least 50% of which i don't feel any bad effect. In the rest, there could be less than perfect timing, a little mishit

But the pros jump all the way now. With a much greater racket size, that advice could be Out of date in some cases.

[kimizz]

I suggest staying down.

Ive noticed that when I stay down my legs will automatically drive up at one point of the stroke. Maybe this is the idea of "staying down"? This way you dont jump, the legs will drive up NATURALLY.

Pro players dont jump, they have such a huge leg drive that they end up really high off the ground.

[JCo872]

Originally Posted by kimizz

I suggest staying down.

Ive noticed that when I stay down my legs will automatically drive up at one point of the stroke. Maybe this is the idea of "staying down"? This way you dont jump, the legs will drive up NATURALLY.

Pro players dont jump, they have such a huge leg drive that they end up really high off the ground.

Exactly! Also the uncoiling of the torso seems to lift the body upwards as well.

James Blake was interviewed recently and he said that the key to his forehand was "sit and lift". You can this "sit and lift" from Federer as well on my homepage: http://www.hi-techtennis.com. His torso uncoils and his legs push up

[The Gorilla]

what's the benefit of sit and lift JC?

[habib]

Originally Posted by The Gorilla

what's the benefit of sit and lift JC?

Think of a spring.

[JCo872]

Originally Posted by habib

Think of a spring.

Exactly. Spring like.

When I first looked at "sit and lift" in pro forehands, I found interesting that it occured before impact, and that it occurs almost all the time. Here is a great example from Arazi of "sit and lift":

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/video_s...wf&size=normal

It looks to me like "sit and lift" involves some kind of transfer of kinetic energy upwards from the legs to the hitting arm, which really lifts the ball on impact. If you go through Arazi's forehand frame by frame from contact on, you can see how much his arm and racket lift the ball.

Jeff

[kimizz]

Originally Posted by JCo872

Exactly. Spring like.

When I first looked at "sit and lift" in pro forehands, I found interesting that it occured before impact, and that it occurs almost all the time. Here is a great example from Arazi of "sit and lift":

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/video_s...wf&size=normal

It looks to me like "sit and lift" involves some kind of transfer of kinetic energy upwards from the legs to the hitting arm, which really lifts the ball on impact. If you go through Arazi's forehand frame by frame from contact on, you can see how much his arm and racket lift the ball.

Jeff

Even after reading about the leg drive and stuff it was this clip that really made an impact. Look how high he gets... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4jYwOszO4Q

[The Gorilla]

Originally Posted by JCo872

Exactly. Spring like.

When I first looked at "sit and lift" in pro forehands, I found interesting that it occured before impact, and that it occurs almost all the time. Here is a great example from Arazi of "sit and lift":

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/video_s...wf&size=normal

It looks to me like "sit and lift" involves some kind of transfer of kinetic energy upwards from the legs to the hitting arm, which really lifts the ball on impact. If you go through Arazi's forehand frame by frame from contact on, you can see how much his arm and racket lift the ball.

Jeff

I'm having a hard time understanding how straightening the legs loads the hitting arm, I really can't get my head around it.Is it a component of the same 'kinetic chain' or is it a kinetic energy transfer of it's own?Is it possible that the benefit is purely added topspin?Sometimes, just for fun, I jump upwards as high as I can and get a massively topspun ball as my racquet is now moving upwards whilst not having changed me swing path.Or could it be a position from which they are ready to jump up and hit extremely high trajectory balls?

[habib]

Originally Posted by The Gorilla

I'm having a hard time understanding how straightening the legs loads the hitting arm, I really can't get my head around it.Is it a component of the same 'kinetic chain' or is it a kinetic energy transfer of it's own?Is it possible that the benefit is purely added topspin?Sometimes, just for fun, I jump upwards as high as I can and get a massively topspun ball as my racquet is now moving upwards whilst not having changed me swing path.Or could it be a position from which they are ready to jump up and hit extremely high trajectory balls?

It has nothing to do with "jumping upwards as high as you can," which won't result in anything but a loss of control, nor does it necessarily apply to high trajectory balls. "Sit and lift" refers to nothing more and nothing less than the proper use of your legs when hitting the ball. It's advice used to ingrain the idea that your legs provide most of the drive and power behind shots. When you "sit," you lower yourself and turn your hips/shoulders/bring back your racquet. When you lift, your legs act like a spring, driving upwards to uncoil your hips and propel your shoulders forward, which ultimately pulls the arm and racquet into the ball.

The result of using your legs as the main driving force behind your shots is that it leaves your arm/hand free to focus on controlling the alignment of the racquet and the direction/trajectory of the shot (though of course your legs play a role in this, as well).

[The Gorilla]

Originally Posted by habib

It has nothing to do with "jumping upwards as high as you can," which won't result in anything but a loss of control, nor does it necessarily apply to high trajectory balls. "Sit and lift" refers to nothing more and nothing less than the proper use of your legs when hitting the ball. It's advice used to ingrain the idea that your legs provide most of the drive and power behind shots. When you "sit," you lower yourself and turn your hips/shoulders/bring back your racquet. When you lift, your legs act like a spring, driving upwards to uncoil your hips and propel your shoulders forward, which ultimately pulls the arm and racquet into the ball.

The result of using your legs as the main driving force behind your shots is that it leaves your arm/hand free to focus on controlling the alignment of the racquet and the direction/trajectory of the shot (though of course your legs play a role in this, as well).

sweet jesus, do you talk like this to everyone?


I know it results in a massive loss in control, that's why I said ''sometimes, just for fun'', I would never do it in a match, or even in practice.


What has the sitting and lifting got to do with the turn of the shoulders and hips?What you seem to be saying is that sitting and lifting is done at the same time as loading the hips and shoulders, not what relevance sitting and lifting has.

What force does sitting and lifting enact on the hips and shoulder, that's my question, if you didn't sit and lift, would that have any impact on the amount of power you could generate whatsoever?

[habib]

Originally Posted by The Gorilla

sweet jesus, do you talk like this to everyone?

No.

I know it results in a massive loss in control, that's why I said ''sometimes, just for fun'', I would never do it in a match, or even in practice.

Ok.

What has the sitting and lifting got to do with the turn of the shoulders and hips?What you seem to be saying is that sitting and lifting is done at the same time as loading the hips and shoulders, not what relevance sitting and lifting has.

What force does sitting and lifting enact on the hips and shoulder, that's my question, if you didn't sit and lift, would that have any impact on the amount of power you could generate whatsoever?

I thought I did a decent job of explaining what sitting and lifting has to do with the shoulder and hip turn, but I'll try this again:

First, to answer your question: yes, if you didn't sit and lift it would have a massive impact on the amount of power - and more specifically: controllable power - which you would be able to generate.

Look at it like this: If you don't sit and lift, you are forced to generate all of your power from your upper body - basically by forcing trunk/shoulder rotation. By sitting and lifting, your legs, in driving upwards, automatically uncoil and rotate your torso into the ball.

Do this for me: stand up, and pretend like you're about to hit a forehand. Turn your shoulders and hips as you would, then bend your knees and lower yourself down ("sit"). Now, straighten your legs. You should notice that the act of straightening your legs automatically rotated your torso back to a face-forward (rather than turned) position, or at least somewhere close. In other words - you've just used virtually no upper body effort whatsoever to rotate/open your torso into the shot. What is the benefit? Your upper body remains relaxed and able to focus on directing the ball, not applying force to it. The application of force now occurs, basically, as a side-effect of driving up with your legs.

In simple terms, it's a question of efficiency. Why use your torso to do two things, when your legs can do one far better, leaving your torso to concentrate on the other?

[tlm]

The sit+lift technique is good, but saying to stay down is not good advise.That is bad oldschool teaching, you should naturally lift on a groundstroke trying to stay down will take a lot away from your shot.

The video of federer clearly shows that he bends his knees some but then he comes up even leaving the ground.On many of the videos of pros forehands they come off the ground, so i dont think they are following the staying down technique.

[kimizz]

Originally Posted by tlm

The sit+lift technique is good, but saying to stay down is not good advise.That is bad oldschool teaching, you should naturally lift on a groundstroke trying to stay down will take a lot away from your shot.

The video of federer clearly shows that he bends his knees some but then he comes up even leaving the ground.On many of the videos of pros forehands they come off the ground, so i dont think they are following the staying down technique.

Yes staying down is bad, If you force it through the stroke. Was this tought in the old days? That you should make sure you stay down? I really dont know. My friend who is a coach sayd he sometimes teaches this but its because he doenst want the students to jump.

The slow-mos of the pros might mislead some of the beginners. The pros indeed come off the ground but thats in a match situation when they try to hit REALLY hard. Some noob might interpert this in a way that jumping is good. Most of the beginners are usually just practising and rallying with their friends. In these cases jumping is harmful. The pros are not coming off the ground when they warm up or practise their groundies. But there isnt much slow-mo clips of the players just practising.