Forehand question

[TennisBoy]

I have a question in regards to the forehand motion. I was wondering how the elbow is like during the entire process. Is it more in a "tucked" position and as you swing, it extrends through?? Or does it more begin at a stretched (slightly crooked) position and through? I was wondering how to apply the best leverage and most efficient in hitting a forehand.

thanks

[Marius_Hancu]

Originally Posted by TennisBoy

I have a question in regards to the forehand motion. I was wondering how the elbow is like during the entire process. Is it more in a "tucked" position and as you swing, it extrends through?? Or does it more begin at a stretched (slightly crooked) position and through? I was wondering how to apply the best leverage and most efficient in hitting a forehand.

it really depends on your grip.
but check the pro videos at
http://www.tenniscruz.com/photo.htm
esp in step-by-step mode and you'll have an answer.

this is also quite well discussed at easitennis.com, but you need to be a member.

[Marius_Hancu]

check them too

http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/.../sampras03.swf
http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/.../sampras04.swf

[paulfreda]

I think that it depends on the grip and stance you are using.
One can it effective shots either with the elbow tucked well inside near the body or extended almost like you are pulling a rope.
I think you will discover a great deal of controlled power if you practice with the elbow tucked in though as it forces you to use the forward motion of your arm and body more than a swinging door/pulling rope type swing. It is almost like punching someone in the face with your fist exploding from you shoulder straight ahead.
At first it may feel weak and awkward, but once you get it you will have a wonderful technique for generating controlled power.
You can also set up very quickly as all you need do is draw your elbow back; so it is good against pace. The disadvantage is that you need the ball coming right at you because the elbow and arm are close to your body, so you need fast feet to get you to those balls not hit near you.

Much of what I have said applies to the SW and Full Western grips, not Eastern like Sampras' swing where his bent elbow allows him to have a little higher strike zone.

[Thomas Bird-Itch]

Back from the dead.

Anyone have some better links about this? I keep messing with my grip, but I think my elbow is flying and causing inconsistency.

[JCo872]

Originally Posted by TennisBoy

I have a question in regards to the forehand motion. I was wondering how the elbow is like during the entire process. Is it more in a "tucked" position and as you swing, it extrends through?? Or does it more begin at a stretched (slightly crooked) position and through? I was wondering how to apply the best leverage and most efficient in hitting a forehand.

thanks

Once the elbow locks into its angle, it must stay at the angle through contact! Some players have big bends in the elbow (Djokovic, Ginepri, Grosjean) some have almost straight arms (Safin, Federer, Nadal, Verdasco). But whatever your style, that elbow angle must remain the same before, into, and through contact.

By keeping the elbow constant coming into and through the ball, you transfer the power of your core and of your entire arm, through the ball. One of the biggest problems I see among players is the "swinging" at the elbow joint. It disconnects your body's core mass from driving through the ball.

[Thomas Bird-Itch]

Thanks Jeffrey. I understand what you're saying about the angle staying the same. I guess more the problem I have is keeping the racquet at a consistent angle.

What I mean is my elbow stays at the same angle, but where it points is not the same every stroke. Sometimes the racquet face may begin too open or closed because I lead late or early with the elbow. Because of that, I'm questioning my grip, but I really believe it's the position of my elbow o rhow the arm is pivoting at my shoulder. Does that make sense? Do you have any suggestions?

[habib]

Originally Posted by Thomas Bird-Itch

Thanks Jeffrey. I understand what you're saying about the angle staying the same. I guess more the problem I have is keeping the racquet at a consistent angle.

What I mean is my elbow stays at the same angle, but where it points is not the same every stroke. Sometimes the racquet face may begin too open or closed because I lead late or early with the elbow. Because of that, I'm questioning my grip, but I really believe it's the position of my elbow o rhow the arm is pivoting at my shoulder. Does that make sense? Do you have any suggestions?

Do you lay your wrist back intentionally prior to the forward swing, or do you relax your wrist and allow it to lay back on its own as the swing begins? I'm thinking if you do the latter it may account for the racquet face being at different angles on contact.

[Thomas Bird-Itch]

Originally Posted by habib

Do you lay your wrist back intentionally prior to the forward swing, or do you relax your wrist and allow it to lay back on its own as the swing begins? I'm thinking if you do the latter it may account for the racquet face being at different angles on contact.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!! I allow it to lay back as I begin to swing forward!! I can see how that would be BAD for a lot of reasons - timing being the first. Years ago I heard an instructor say "keep your wrist relaxed when you swing" to a girl he was teaching. I never thought that little hitch would cause a problem. Now it makes complete sense!

Ironically, I preach using a stiff wrist on a 2H BH to people who are learning one (b/c mine is very good), but the FH side is really no different. I don't know why I didn't think to change my own forehand. This explains so much... inconsistent depth, directional control, being late/early, etc. My forehand has been solid with sitters b/c I've never had time to make that loopy whip into the ball. Now I realize I've been doing it all along from deep in the court! Wow...

[EricW]

Originally Posted by Thomas Bird-Itch

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!! I allow it to lay back as I begin to swing forward!! I can see how that would be BAD for a lot of reasons - timing being the first. Years ago I heard an instructor say "keep your wrist relaxed when you swing" to a girl he was teaching. I never thought that little hitch would cause a problem. Now it makes complete sense!

Ironically, I preach using a stiff wrist on a 2H BH to people who are learning one (b/c mine is very good), but the FH side is really no different. I don't know why I didn't think to change my own forehand. This explains so much... inconsistent depth, directional control, being late/early, etc. My forehand has been solid with sitters b/c I've never had time to make that loopy whip into the ball. Now I realize I've been doing it all along from deep in the court! Wow...

The way you are doing it is right, every pro relaxes their wrist and lets it lay back with the force generated during the swing. That's why when you see a pro hit a forehand from right behind them, it looks like they are "slapping" at the ball with their wrist. Watch someone hit a forehand who just lays it back at 90 degrees before their swing. It looks really weird, just stick with the way your doing it now

And yes, that instructor was right, your wrist should be relaxed during your forehand. Watch a slow motion vid of a pro, you can clearly see the wrist starts at an angle around 135 degrees, and then the force of the swing makes the wrist lay back to 90 degrees, and then moves forward again to ~135 degrees

[Thomas Bird-Itch]

Originally Posted by EricW

The way you are doing it is right, every pro relaxes their wrist and lets it lay back with the force generated during the swing. That's why when you see a pro hit a forehand from right behind them, it looks like they are "slapping" at the ball with their wrist. Watch someone hit a forehand who just lays it back at 90 degrees before their swing. It looks really weird, just stick with the way your doing it now

I see what you're saying. I think my problem is that I've only been doing it partly right. For most short balls, I fix my wrist quickly, as soon as I begin to go forward. Behind the baseline though, my wrist may be bending throughout the stroke, slapping at it, instead of drive through. That can't be good.

EDIT:Adding...

Originally Posted by EricW

And yes, that instructor was right, your wrist should be relaxed during your forehand. Watch a slow motion vid of a pro, you can clearly see the wrist starts at an angle around 135 degrees, and then the force of the swing makes the wrist lay back to 90 degrees, and then moves forward again to ~135 degrees

I don't see that the wrist moves/pushes forward from the "90 degree" point, or wherever it was once the racquet started moving, until after contact. I don't think the wrist "snaps" moves forward during/at contact. Is that what you're suggesting I do? This has been discussed here quite a bit and I don't think that's the case.

[EricW]

Originally Posted by Thomas Bird-Itch

I don't see that the wrist moves/pushes forward from the "90 degree" point, or wherever it was once the racquet started moving, until after contact. I don't think the wrist "snaps" moves forward during/at contact. Is that what you're suggesting I do? This has been discussed here quite a bit and I don't think that's the case.

In every good player, during the swing, the wrist becomes laid back at 90 degrees at one point, right? Now pick up a racquet and see what it would be like to maintain that angle all the way through contact. It wouldn't work.

When you make contact your wrist will have moved about 45 degrees forward (to around 135 degrees) from when it was laid back the most (90 degrees)

And yes, you do do that, unless your forehand is terrible. Watch a slow motion vid of any pro, and you'll see that theres a lot of wrist movement during the swing (before contact), and the most wrist movement you'll see will come from Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal

Remember: This is not active wrist movement! The wrist movement in a forehand comes from the force of the swing coupled with a relaxed wrist! (And to promote the relaxed wrist and make your forehand more natural, you shouldn't lay the racquet back to 90 degrees before the swing, you should let it fall back naturally from the force of the swing)

[sharpy]

Originally Posted by Thomas Bird-Itch

I see what you're saying. I think my problem is that I've only been doing it partly right. For most short balls, I fix my wrist quickly, as soon as I begin to go forward. Behind the baseline though, my wrist may be bending throughout the stroke, slapping at it, instead of drive through. That can't be good.

EDIT:Adding...


I don't see that the wrist moves/pushes forward from the "90 degree" point, or wherever it was once the racquet started moving, until after contact. I don't think the wrist "snaps" moves forward during/at contact. Is that what you're suggesting I do? This has been discussed here quite a bit and I don't think that's the case.

your absolutely correct, the wrist doesnt push forward from the "90 degree point" it's just the wrist release is a passive element and you shouldnt even think about it.

[EricW]

Originally Posted by sharpy

your absolutely correct, the wrist doesnt push forward from the "90 degree point" it's just Ericw spreading more bs around due to his lack of knowledge. the wrist release is a passive element and you shouldnt even think about it.

Are you joking? You start out your post saying the wrist doesnt go forward from the 90 degree point into contact, and then the next sentence you mention the wrist release? What the hell?

If he lays his racquet back to 90 degrees before the swing, and doesn't let it fall back due to the force of the swing, then the wrist release will be much less natural, and might become forced, resulting in injury.

By the way did you read what I wrote in italics:

Originally Posted by EricW

Remember: This is not active wrist movement! The wrist movement in a forehand comes from the force of the swing coupled with a relaxed wrist! (And to promote the relaxed wrist and make your forehand more natural, you shouldn't lay the racquet back to 90 degrees before the swing, you should let it fall back naturally from the force of the swing)

[Thomas Bird-Itch]

Maybe I've been doing it actively, but subconsiously? lol. [I also think my shoulders are opening too soon.] I guess "snapping" it forward purposely was the myth, where allowing it to naturally whip forward is ok? In some videos, it does look like the wrist whips the racquet forward slightly, but on others it looks like it stays laid back as it was once the swing began forward. Now I'm confused.

[EDIT] Adding: FWIW, Guga is the player who appeared to whip the racquet forward slightly, but maybe he was late on the shot or something. The others who didn't appear to change the wrist angle were Djokovic, Hewitt, and Mathieu.

[EricW]

Originally Posted by Thomas Bird-Itch

Maybe I've been doing it actively, but subconsiously? lol. [I also think my shoulders are opening too soon.] I guess "snapping" it forward purposely was the myth, where allowing it to naturally whip forward is ok? In some videos, it does look like the wrist whips the racquet forward slightly, but on others it looks like it stays laid back as it was once the swing began forward. Now I'm confused.

[EDIT] Adding: FWIW, Guga is the player who appeared to whip the racquet forward slightly, but maybe he was late on the shot or something. The others who didn't appear to change the wrist angle were Djokovic, Hewitt, and Mathieu.

Exactly, actively "snapping" it forward will kill your ability to hit a high level forehand, also leading to injuries, but in every good forehand, there is inactive wrist movement, which is just natural if you have a relaxed wrist and clean contact.

Watch slow motion videos of Nadal and Federer to see the most apparent wrist movement, but every other player along with Nadal and Federer has the inactive wrist movement.

Sometimes it's not as apparent as others, sometimes just because of the angle of the vid, but it's definitely there. Every pro, when hitting a topspin forehand, has their wrist lay back to 90 degrees during the swing. Now pick up a racquet and put the racquet where you would make contact, and put your wrist at 90 degrees, no way could you make contact like that.

[habib]

Originally Posted by EricW

Are you joking? You start out your post saying the wrist doesnt go forward from the 90 degree point into contact, and then the next sentence you mention the wrist release? What the hell?

If he lays his racquet back to 90 degrees before the swing, and doesn't let it fall back due to the force of the swing, then the wrist release will be much less natural, and might become forced, resulting in injury.

By the way did you read what I wrote in italics:

His usual faults aside, Sharpy is actually right here. The wrist lays back, but doesn't actually 'release' until after contact is made. The forearm will at times pronate during contact, but the angle of the wrist remains constant throughout contact. Yes, even those pros who lay it back 90 degrees (and the angle will actually vary from one to the other) make contact with the wrist that far back. Look at the sequence of Hewitt posted above - his wrist maintains the exact same angle to the forearm, and the forearm to the upper arm, throughout the swing, and releases only after contact.

[habib]

Originally Posted by Thomas Bird-Itch

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!! I allow it to lay back as I begin to swing forward!! I can see how that would be BAD for a lot of reasons - timing being the first. Years ago I heard an instructor say "keep your wrist relaxed when you swing" to a girl he was teaching. I never thought that little hitch would cause a problem. Now it makes complete sense!

Well, don't overreact. Maintaing a relaxed wrist and allowing it to lay back as a function of the arm accelerating is not necessarily wrong or bad. It simply complicates the timing aspect - as you've noted - and can play tricks with your racquet alignment. Mind you, I should add that a relaxed wrist and a loose wrist aren't the same thing. You should still have a relaxed wrist even if you lay it back intentionally prior to the swing - that way the wrist-release which Eric mentioned (though not exactly like he described) can still take place (after contact).

[Lendl's Forehand]

I tend to agree with habib. I try to reinforce to not break the wrist whatsoever until contact is made. I don't like the idea of changing the angle of the forearm/racquet (90 to 135 for instance). Especially in less experienced players, this is a recipe for disaster.
What so many people need to remember is that none of us are either Federer or Nadal, and most of us are not even close.
If you are having consistency issues with the forehand, lay the wrist back, do not release it until contact.

Also, this thread was originally about elbow. Do not lose control of your elbow if you are having consistency issues! If that means "tucking it into your side", do so (as best as you can). Your shoulders, torso, and forearm should be doing the brunt of the work, a flying elbow just adds another variable to the mix.

[mrcalon]

If you want to maximize that topspin let that wrist go freely when you do the windshield wiping motion.

You don't keep your wrist firm when you hit a kick serve , do you?