How big are the sandbags?

[Z-Man]

Originally Posted by amarone

You could always play USTA in Atlanta. The winter season is about to start and there are 22 4.5 teams.

I was lucky to get onto an ALTA team in Newnan--30min away. I don't know anyone in Atlanta with a 4.5 team, and I can guarantee you nobody who has a 4.5 team is looking to add someone who won't win more than half of his matches. Then of course there is the three hour roundtrip drive for matches. (ALTA Home matches in Newnan are only an hour roundtrip.)

Seriously, if you were captain of a 4.5 team, would you want to add me to the roster? I'm not going to take you to state--I doubt I would even win a set at the 4.5 state tournament!

[amarone]

Originally Posted by Z-Man

I was lucky to get onto an ALTA team in Newnan--30min away. I don't know anyone in Atlanta with a 4.5 team, and I can guarantee you nobody who has a 4.5 team is looking to add someone who won't win more than half of his matches. Then of course there is the three hour roundtrip drive for matches. (ALTA Home matches in Newnan are only an hour roundtrip.)

Seriously, if you were captain of a 4.5 team, would you want to add me to the roster? I'm not going to take you to state--I doubt I would even win a set at the 4.5 state tournament!

I was only trying to help. It is tricky if you are on the south side as most/all the 4.5 teams look to be on the north side or midtown at best.

However, several teams are low on numbers and quite a few are 40% 4.0, so I am sure they would be interested in genuine 4.5 players - if you are prepared to travel. If you are interested, USTA Atlanta will help you find a team - go here: http://www.southern.usta.com/atlanta...tompageid=8306

[Z-Man]

Originally Posted by amarone

I was only trying to help. It is tricky if you are on the south side as most/all the 4.5 teams look to be on the north side or midtown at best.

However, several teams are low on numbers and quite a few are 40% 4.0, so I am sure they would be interested in genuine 4.5 players - if you are prepared to travel. If you are interested, USTA Atlanta will help you find a team - go here: http://www.southern.usta.com/atlanta...tompageid=8306

Thanks, I appreciate it. There are a bunch of us in LaGrange who are in the same boat. We've decided to play ALTA AA4 out of Newnan. That way, at least half of the matches are only 30min away, and we can stick together as a team.

But enough about me...

I think the answer to the original question is that the sandbags are pretty big in league tennis. Especially at state and sectionals. You just have to know that going in. When that knowledge is built into your expectations, you shouldn't be unhappy or surprised. Going to state should not be about taking home a trophy. It's about the search for better competition. The people who are after the trophy aren't going to get any better. Competition is what makes you better.

The sandbagger who beat me in the finals did me a huge favor--he showed me exactly what I need to do to get to the next level. Now it's up to me to raise the level of my game, and that's what it's all about.

[Topaz]

Originally Posted by Z-Man

Thanks, I appreciate it. There are a bunch of us in LaGrange who are in the same boat. We've decided to play ALTA AA4 out of Newnan. That way, at least half of the matches are only 30min away, and we can stick together as a team.

But enough about me...

I think the answer to the original question is that the sandbags are pretty big in league tennis. Especially at state and sectionals. You just have to know that going in. When that knowledge is built into your expectations, you shouldn't be unhappy or surprised. Going to state should not be about taking home a trophy. It's about the search for better competition. The people who are after the trophy aren't going to get any better. Competition is what makes you better.

The sandbagger who beat me in the finals did me a huge favor--he showed me exactly what I need to do to get to the next level. Now it's up to me to raise the level of my game, and that's what it's all about.

That is what it is all about to you...unfortunately there are many people out there that are in it for the trophy, and care little for the satisfaction that comes from working hard, improving, and competing well.

I think to some degree, and maybe this only applies to lower levels, that some of the teams come together and just click, and a few players shine at the right time, and before you know it, you're at sectionals or nationals. Again, my friend's team that went to nationals this year worked really hard, and spent plenty of time getting beat before things just came together. I don't classify them as sandbaggers, but they are definitely playing a higher level of tennis than they did last year or even the beginning of the season...because they worked hard and really wanted to improve. And that, in turn, yielded the 'trophies'. I don't know, I guess we can go round and round...but yes, sandbaggers are a problem, but try not to let that ruin your joy of the game!

[MSL]

Originally Posted by Z-Man

Going to state should not be about taking home a trophy. It's about the search for better competition. The people who are after the trophy aren't going to get any better. Competition is what makes you better.

The sandbagger who beat me in the finals did me a huge favor--he showed me exactly what I need to do to get to the next level. Now it's up to me to raise the level of my game, and that's what it's all about.

Wow... that logic is really out there.

If someone wanted better competition, couldn't they just play up in their local leagues or tournaments?

The fact is, some people aren't EVER going to improve enough to move up a level. They are a solid 3.5 player and will always be a solid 3.5 player. Maybe they are at the maximum of their athletic ability. Shouldn't they have a chance of success in their own division?

If a person is a 3.5 based on the rules set forth by the USTA, then that person should have a chance of winning the 3.5 division at nationals.

If they want to thank someone for showing them what they need to do to improve then maybe they could thank an instructor for some lessons.

-Matt

[Caswell]

Originally Posted by MSL

If a person is a 3.5 based on the rules set forth by the USTA, then that person should have a chance of winning the 3.5 division at nationals.

You're not going to get that with flights broken down into 0.5 increments. If you consider people appealing down you've got a large spread of skill in a single NTRP flight - in the case of 3.5 you're looking at everything from 3.01 to 3.55.

To me the only problem with the NTRP system is letting players at 4.5 and above play down just so that they'll have competition. When your 5.0 and 4.5 players suddenly become 4.0 players, your 4.0 players become 3.5's, and so on down the line.

Growing up in a tennis club with an active adult league and tournament playerbase, I can tell you that the better 3.5 players I saw in the early to mid 90's would be middle of the pack 3.0's now.

[ohplease]

Originally Posted by Caswell

Growing up in a tennis club with an active adult league and tournament playerbase, I can tell you that the better 3.5 players I saw in the early to mid 90's would be middle of the pack 3.0's now.

Sounds about right to me. The problem is the "interpretation" of the guidelines has remained static, but the reality of the competition at any given level has indeed changed.

It's telling that when people honestly make a mistake (as opposed to a blatant attempt to sandbag) - they pretty much never rate themselves too low. Sure, some of that is aspirational or wishful thinking, but not enough to account for what's going on.

It really comes down to this: is the USTA helping grow the sport with its current implementation of the NTRP? I say no. In fact, I think tennis in the US soldiers on DESPITE the USTA's efforts.

As for the USTA defenders - raise your hands if even half of your USTA matches have been legitimately competitive. I had maybe 2 or 3 matches out of a dozen that could have gone either way. All the others had me blowing them out, or being blown out, and I was neither playing up, nor down.

[MSL]

Originally Posted by Caswell

You're not going to get that with flights broken down into 0.5 increments. If you consider people appealing down you've got a large spread of skill in a single NTRP flight - in the case of 3.5 you're looking at everything from 3.01 to 3.55.

To me the only problem with the NTRP system is letting players at 4.5 and above play down just so that they'll have competition. When your 5.0 and 4.5 players suddenly become 4.0 players, your 4.0 players become 3.5's, and so on down the line.

Growing up in a tennis club with an active adult league and tournament playerbase, I can tell you that the better 3.5 players I saw in the early to mid 90's would be middle of the pack 3.0's now.

I'm saying that if a 3.5 level was really 3.5 to 3.99 then anyone could win. If a 3.5 has a good day and a 3.99 has a bad day, it could go either way.

If a 3.0 or a 3.49 chooses to play up, that's fine.

IMO, that's really the way it should be.

-Matt

[JavierLW]

Originally Posted by ohplease

Sounds about right to me. The problem is the "interpretation" of the guidelines has remained static, but the reality of the competition at any given level has indeed changed.

It's telling that when people honestly make a mistake (as opposed to a blatant attempt to sandbag) - they pretty much never rate themselves too low. Sure, some of that is aspirational or wishful thinking, but not enough to account for what's going on.

It really comes down to this: is the USTA helping grow the sport with its current implementation of the NTRP? I say no. In fact, I think tennis in the US soldiers on DESPITE the USTA's efforts.

As for the USTA defenders - raise your hands if even half of your USTA matches have been legitimately competitive. I had maybe 2 or 3 matches out of a dozen that could have gone either way. All the others had me blowing them out, or being blown out, and I was neither playing up, nor down.

Ive seen this thread in our local league, although I blame the appeal system and self rating for the most part.

When I first started my 3.5 team in 2004, I graded all the teams. You can believe me or not, but I know most of the players/teams on every team, my friends are teaching pros and I am good at ranking players. (in fact in our 8 team division I correctly predicted what place every team would be in, not including us of course)

I graded teams A-F.

"A" teams were usually those teams that always tended to win first place every single year and very rarely ever lost a team match in local competition. (one team to this date has lost 6 in 7 years)

"B" teams were these teams that were always in 2nd place. They usually beat everyone else and were very formitable but always came up short of moving on to the next level.

"D" and "F" teams were bad teams. For whatever reason they were always in last, or near last consistantly. (some of these teams are really 3.0 teams in the 3.5 league and some of them just dont win for whatever reason)

The rest were "C" teams which I considered to the average teams and on any given year could finish anywhere from 3rd to 6th place depending on how they were doing. Out of 32 3.5 teams, I would consider that slightly more than half of those were average teams.

Over the past couple years it hasnt been like that at all. Ive been in two 6 team divisions where there are 3 or 4 teams that I would consider a A or a B team in 2004. I do this because of the players, they either have an over abundance of appealees or a lot of new self rates.

And we still have the bad teams from 2004, so it's like oh please said, if you are an average team, you are probally rarely seeing a match that could go either way.

That's here in my area though. Some of the good chances though have been that now new teams seem to win every year, however they are usually doing it because there is an arms race to keep appealing players and find new self-rates. If you dont appeal your players, you are almost looking at ending up in the bottom of your division the next year which is no fun.

(or for some of you who only want to win first, I'll still say that it's still less fun then taking 2nd or 3rd)

[smoothtennis]

I realize I have little experience in USTA leauges, but here is an observation.

It would seem to me, that no matter what level is being played, the only way to make it to Nationals, would be for those folks to be playing better than most other people in their level that year. I would figure most folks would be on the cusp, or they wouldn't get to Nationals right?

So...won't this always be an issue based on the nature of taking only the top teams/players to nationals?

[Caswell]

Originally Posted by MSL

I'm saying that if a 3.5 level was really 3.5 to 3.99 then anyone could win. If a 3.5 has a good day and a 3.99 has a bad day, it could go either way.

If a 3.0 or a 3.49 chooses to play up, that's fine.

The 3.5 flight is everyone with an NTRP from 3.01 to 3.50. If you include the automatically approved appeals (+/- 0.05 of the requested NTRP), you're looking at 2.96 to 3.55 as legitimate 3.5 players.

The document we've seen that claims to know how NTRP works (http://www.shively.net/howNTRPisCalculated.pdf) suggests that a 6-0, 6-1 match score is only a 0.325 differential. That means it's completely within the realm of possibility for matches between two players in the correct flight to be completely uncompetitive.

Assuming that document is even in the ballpark of being right, that's the crux of the whole NTRP mess.

[kylebarendrick]

I still don't think appealing really hurts anything. It just means that the 3.5 level runs from 3.05 to 3.55 instead of 3.0 to 3.5. It's still a .5 point level and the actual numbers are arbitrary anyway. It does get frustrating, though, to see someone who you know belongs at the next level finally get bumped, only to then see them appeal back down again.

That said, I would get rid of the appeals. They don't serve any useful purpose and only create hard feelings. They also make it too easy to spot the people at the top of the level. If I was starting a new team with championship goals, I'd sign up as many adj players as I could find since I know they're at the top. The adj ratings may also encourage tanking matches so players can stay at the lower level.

As far as self-rates go, I'd just increase their minimum number of matches to be eligible for the playoffs and DQ any of them from the post-season that get an ESR that pushes them up a level.

[Topaz]

Originally Posted by ohplease

As for the USTA defenders - raise your hands if even half of your USTA matches have been legitimately competitive. I had maybe 2 or 3 matches out of a dozen that could have gone either way. All the others had me blowing them out, or being blown out, and I was neither playing up, nor down.

I'm not sure if I'm a USTA defender per say, but...*raising hand*...the vast majority of my matches were very competitive, at both 3.0 and 3.5!

[lostinamerica]

Originally Posted by Topaz

I'm not sure if I'm a USTA defender per say, but...*raising hand*...the vast majority of my matches were very competitive, at both 3.0 and 3.5!

I am a USTA defender. I know the sandbagging is out of control for certain teams. Yet, the majority are not sandbagging and even if you take a pounding from a team that is clearly out of level, for the most part you are getting to play new people that you would not otherwise play. In the end it is just for fun.

So Texas/Carribean/NorCal/SoCal/Mid West like to send a team that is really strong every year. Most weeks, I am certain most of the other teams in the division are probably having fun. Those teams that are vying for Nationals may not see much real competition until they get there. They are playing to really have fun for one weekend. One could argue that they are the ones losing.

[JavierLW]

Originally Posted by kylebarendrick

I still don't think appealing really hurts anything. It just means that the 3.5 level runs from 3.05 to 3.55 instead of 3.0 to 3.5. It's still a .5 point level and the actual numbers are arbitrary anyway. It does get frustrating, though, to see someone who you know belongs at the next level finally get bumped, only to then see them appeal back down again.

That said, I would get rid of the appeals. They don't serve any useful purpose and only create hard feelings. They also make it too easy to spot the people at the top of the level. If I was starting a new team with championship goals, I'd sign up as many adj players as I could find since I know they're at the top. The adj ratings may also encourage tanking matches so players can stay at the lower level.

As far as self-rates go, I'd just increase their minimum number of matches to be eligible for the playoffs and DQ any of them from the post-season that get an ESR that pushes them up a level.

Appealling ultimately hurts players on the bottom levels 2.5 / 3.0. If you trickle everyone down a level, eventually you will end up with players on the bottom (who may be good for their respective level otherwise) who are going to be left without being able to find a competitive match.

If the goal is to have as many players interested and involved with league tennis, then that's not good. (because you lose players that way)

I know tons of 3.0 and 3.5 player in my local area who will never find a team unless they make one themselves (and you cant expect everyone to do that...).

I love your idea about the minimum number of matches for self rates qualifying for the playoffs. It's crazy when you have teams who primarily play players in the playoffs (like the 3.5 "SuperTeam" from the Mid_West) that have only played 1 or 2 real matches in the regular season.

[JavierLW]

Originally Posted by lostinamerica

I am a USTA defender. I know the sandbagging is out of control for certain teams. Yet, the majority are not sandbagging and even if you take a pounding from a team that is clearly out of level, for the most part you are getting to play new people that you would not otherwise play. In the end it is just for fun.

So Texas/Carribean/NorCal/SoCal/Mid West like to send a team that is really strong every year. Most weeks, I am certain most of the other teams in the division are probably having fun. Those teams that are vying for Nationals may not see much real competition until they get there. They are playing to really have fun for one weekend. One could argue that they are the ones losing.

Hopefully I am not either defending them or not. They certainly can do a much better job though.

As far as those teams, in the case of one of them, I do have no respect for them (for more reasons then just sandbagging actually).

But I feel anyway the focus should be on the league, not on these teams. Unless the league changes the rules or improves things (which I will agree in some areas they are trying), it's hard to complain about teams who take advantage of the situation since that's always going to occur anyway. (Im sure there isnt a skill based league in any sport out there that doesnt have the same exact issues)

[Caswell]

Originally Posted by JavierLW

Appealling ultimately hurts players on the bottom levels 2.5 / 3.0. If you trickle everyone down a level, eventually you will end up with players on the bottom (who may be good for their respective level otherwise) who are going to be left without being able to find a competitive match.

Exactly.

In my area the lowest flight in USTA league play is 3.0 - if you've taken a few lessons and want to get started in competition you get put on court with the 3.0s. That means this past seaons you got to play me in league competition - a guy that's won 3.5 tournaments and hits 100+ mph serves consistantly.

Sounds like a good way to get people interested in competitive tennis, no?

[lostinamerica]

Originally Posted by Caswell

Exactly.

In my area the lowest flight in USTA league play is 3.0 - if you've taken a few lessons and want to get started in competition you get put on court with the 3.0s. That means this past seaons you got to play me in league competition - a guy that's won 3.5 tournaments and hits 100+ mph serves consistantly.

Sounds like a good way to get people interested in competitive tennis, no?

And you lost in 3.0? Geez, what kind of 3.0s do you guys have in Florida?

I know I stopped playing tennis for about 15 years but people who could consistently hit over 100 MPH on serves were closer to 5.0 than 3.0. I came back and the 4.5 league players I played with look differently than they do now. 4.5 looks like division I. I have seen 4.0 teams that blow my mind. I read the NTRP descrption and I look at the player and do not see the two numbers matching.

[TheFonz]

Originally Posted by Z-Man

I think sandbagging might be worst at the 4.0 level. Having been to (and lost) in the GA state finals, I can say that to win, you need one or two 5.0s, two or three 4.5s, and a few really good 4.0s. You also need good luck with matchups / stacking, and you need to have your good players available for state and sectionals. My team made it to the finals because we were deep, but that just wasn't enough. You need more than one player who is guaranteed to win. A few years ago we had a guy who played some at Auburn on the team, and we still lost in the finals. The next year at state I was beaten 0-1 by a guy from Brazil who is now winning most of his matches at 5.0. I was unbeaten at the time and was bumped to 4.5.

The bottom line is, everybody needs to lighten up and realize that this is just for fun. You've got to go to state because you want to play some tennis and hang out with your team. It's not going to get you paid, and it's not going to get you laid.

I'd agree with that. Quite a few sandbaggers in the Georgia area. Most of the great team recruit heavily to make sure that they have a strong team. I play for a week team , but have had quite a few offers from some of the better teams. It's not worth it to me. I like the guys that I play with. Sure I want to win, but it's not everything.

[Ronaldo]

Originally Posted by TheFonz

I'd agree with that. Quite a few sandbaggers in the Georgia area. Most of the great team recruit heavily to make sure that they have a strong team. I play for a week team , but have had quite a few offers from some of the better teams. It's not worth it to me. I like the guys that I play with. Sure I want to win, but it's not everything.

Correct, winning is not everything, it's the ONLY thing.