Advice for my serve?

[sharpilistik]

Originally Posted by tricky

BH takeback looks okay, but the footwork's off. Often you're not stepping out with foot closest to ball. And when you do, the steps are not moving into the court.

The problem looks like the sequencing between the legs and hips. What you're doing is first setting your back foot and then turning the hips to load your swing. But the actual sequence on the BH wing is the other way around. Hip turn starts first and helps to key off the step-out. You'll find doing this helps you transfer your weight into the shot. And, it should set up a straighter left arm in the POC.

This is pretty easy to fix. Out of the split step, remember to turn your hip and then step out with foot closest to ball. You'll find that if you try a cross over step, your torso will no longer be facing the net.

So.... the order is to step out with foot closest first right? what's all this stuff about turning the hips before you step out your closest foot?

what "steps are not moving into the court?"

Have anything to say about the takeback?

[tricky]

what "steps are not moving into the court?"

Sometimes you step out with foot closest to ball, but you're not really stepping "out." The foot should stay in front of your body unless you're doing something like a gravity step.

what's all this stuff about turning the hips before you step out your closest foot?

The hip turn and a step out goes together. It helps transfer your weight onto that step and your future steps.

Right now, you think that the feet drives the hips. That is, you step and then unload from the hips. But, the hip should drive the feet. You turn the hip and the feet steps forward into the shot.

Have anything to say about the takeback?

You shouldn't tuck in your elbows (or close the armpits) in the BH takeback, which causes you to trace the smile pattern by purely pivoting the forearms (i.e. hands) around the elbows. Conceptually, it looks like you're trying to swing around your body, as if you were swinging a bat.

You want to trace the pattern with the left elbow joint, letting the arm come away from your body, and the armpit to open naturally. Remember that you're not trying to swing around the body. You want the swing to travel in a line toward the ball.

That all said, the footwork bit is the bigger problem. It's just messing with your concept of the BH, because you're totally thinking of it as a rotational (swing around the axis) rather than linear (put weight into ball) movement.

[sharpilistik]

Originally Posted by tricky

Sometimes you step out with foot closest to ball, but you're not really stepping "out." The foot should stay in front of your body unless you're doing something like a gravity step.



The hip turn and a step out goes together. It helps transfer your weight onto that step and your future steps.

Right now, you think that the feet drives the hips. That is, you step and then unload from the hips. But, the hip should drive the feet. You turn the hip and the feet steps forward into the shot.



You shouldn't tuck in your elbows (or close the armpits) in the BH takeback, which causes you to trace the smile pattern by purely pivoting the forearms (i.e. hands) around the elbows. Conceptually, it looks like you're trying to swing around your body, as if you were swinging a bat.

You want to trace the pattern with the left elbow joint, letting the arm come away from your body, and the armpit to open naturally. Remember that you're not trying to swing around the body. You want the swing to travel in a line toward the ball.

That all said, the footwork bit is the bigger problem. It's just messing with your concept of the BH, because you're totally thinking of it as a rotational (swing around the axis) rather than linear (put weight into ball) movement.

yep yep yep. That's exactly how i think of hitting my bh, like swinging a baseball bat!! I mean this is EXACTLY the visualization I use! How in the world did you know?

So essentially what's the difference? I'm not quite sure what you mean by having the swing travel in a line toward the ball vs. swinging around the body. Im assuming #2 is what im doing now?

Let me have a look at the footwork...So basically what you are saying is that i start out with the feet closest moving first, but somehow not turning the hips along with it?

[tricky]

yep yep yep. That's exactly how i think of hitting my bh, like swinging a baseball bat!!

Yeah, that's not a good thing. If you have played a lot of baseball, this could mess with your muscle memory.

So essentially what's the difference? I'm not quite sure what you mean by having the swing travel in a line toward the ball vs. swinging around the body. Im assuming #2 is what im doing now?

Basically you want to punch or push the racquet into the ball. If you've ever tried out a old-school, closed stance FH, it's kinda the same thing. Or kinda like sucker punching somebody in the breadbasket.

So basically what you are saying is that i start out with the feet closest moving first, but somehow not turning the hips along with it?

No no no. Hip turn helps the step out.

For example, say you need to step out with the left foot. You start turning your left hip and at the same time, lift your left foot off ground. This will initiate the step out.

You'll notice that your foot speed will pick up and your feet will move much lighter. It's less running and more like "stepping" very quickly. You can try this right now.

[sharpilistik]

Originally Posted by tricky

Yeah, that's not a good thing. If you have played a lot of baseball, this could mess with your muscle memory.

Basically you want to punch or push the racquet into the ball. If you've ever tried out a old-school, closed stance FH, it's kinda the same thing. Or kinda like sucker punching somebody in the breadbasket.

No no no. Hip turn helps the step out.

For example, say you need to step out with the left foot. You start turning your left hip and at the same time, lift your left foot off ground. This will initiate the step out.

You'll notice that your foot speed will pick up and your feet will move much lighter. It's less running and more like "stepping" very quickly. You can try this right now.

I'll try not tucking the elbows. Is both elbows tucked in right now?

How much to turn the hips? Does this apply to the fh side as well?

[tricky]

I'll try not tucking the elbows. Is both elbows tucked in right now?

Seems to be. It's kinda strange, though, because you don't do this with the 1H BH slice. You know to transfer your weight into the shot for the slice, but not your topspin BH.

How much to turn the hips?

It's not a lot (no more than 45 degrees); it should feel natural. Also, as you move, you want your torso facing the net, not square to it (which is what you're doing now.) Just let learn to step out using your hips and go from there.

Does this apply to the fh side as well?

You could, and most of the time you will. You could also do something different if you know you're going to hit a FH on the next sequence. On the FH wing, you can sit back a little. Sit back a little and lift the foot closest to the ball to step out. This sets you up quicker to groove a shot

Note that if the ball is coming from your right and you intend to hit a CC BH shot, you still use your hips and step out with foot closest to ball.

[sharpilistik]

Originally Posted by tricky

Seems to be. It's kinda strange, though, because you don't do this with the 1H BH slice. You know to transfer your weight into the shot for the slice, but not your topspin BH.

It's not a lot (no more than 45 degrees); it should feel natural. Also, as you move, you want your torso facing the net, not square to it (which is what you're doing now.) Just let learn to step out using your hips and go from there.

You could, and most of the time you will. You could also do something different if you know you're going to hit a FH on the next sequence. On the FH wing, you can sit back a little. Sit back a little and lift the foot closest to the ball to step out. This sets you up quicker to groove a shot

Note that if the ball is coming from your right and you intend to hit a CC BH shot, you still use your hips and step out with foot closest to ball.

I think its starting to make sense now, only your explanation is alot different than what i heard from quite a few coaches....and probably technically a lot clearer

Ok last questions for tonight, how's the slice bh takeback?

[sharpilistik]

^^^^

tricky heres more pics. Been playing around with stuff but still struggling with the bent straight config stuff. I don't really think im tucking in the elbows in this one though...

I know the footwork sequence is still off in this one but that should be really easy to fix.

http://geocities.com/tennisadvantage/c1.jpg (11)

[tricky]

It looks like when you take back the racquet, you lead with either both arms or the right arm. Of course, you want to lead the takeback with the left elbow.

The right arm is completely passive, and often it remains bent at end of takeback.

Usually at end of takeback, the left elbow is "high" (about chest height), and the right elbow is "low" (no higher than sternum height.)

One thing that helps is, at beginning of unit turn, have the left elbow pointed slightly away from the body, and to make sure the elbow is still slightly pointed away as you take the racquet back. This helps create a more natural takeback, and it helps prevent you from swinging around the body.

EDIT: Another thing that helps (i.e. reinforcing left elbow pointing slightly away) is to have the elbow initially dip a little as you begin the takeback. If the elbow is pointing inwards, then your balance will be off. If the elbow is pointing away from the body, then your balance will be correct, and you'll experience a tight U-shaped/pendulum takeback.

[sharpilistik]

Tricky,

Pictures and videos coming up in a bit of serve....

[sharpilistik]

See if this works tricky

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ir_Sf68Emcs

I also have some pics

http://geocities.com/tennisadvantage/w1.jpg (to 13)

and also have a look at this http://geocities.com/tennisadvantage/trophy.jpg which is kinda strange because you could see how the upperarm isnt really in line with the torso in the trophy

just let me know what you think about this...

[tricky]

This is kinda OT the recent trophy/takeback, but here are some general windup notes that you may want to try.

1) Use your toss arm to set up your body for the windup. This set up shoulder

1a) First set up your stance with normal weight distribution.
1b) Hold the tossing arm, so that the front shoulder/elbow are above the back shoulder/elbow.
1c) Now, lower your tossing arm, letting the front shoulder/elbow fall below the back shoulder/elbow.
1d) Once step C happens (i.e. front is below back) , allow the tossing arm to shift your weight onto the front foot, particularly the ball of your front foot.
1e) Then, bend slightly forward from the left hip. You want to feel as if your hip's weight is slightly into the court.
1f) Now you're at the beginning of your windup. Your upper torso should be facing the net more.

Basically, the above helps keep your center of mass moving forward, sets up shoulder over shoulder (i.e. back shoulder coming over the front) for a good upward swing. Hopefully, as when start tossing the ball, it keys off the windup automatically.

2) Working through the entire windup on the balls of your feet helps to improve leg drive.

3) See if you can "stretch out" the windup once the ball leaves the hand.

and also have a look at this http://geocities.com/tennisadvantage/trophy.jpg which is kinda strange because you could see how the upperarm isnt really in line with the torso in the trophy

Yeah, but at least your elbow is moving away from the body now. That's progress!

Issue has to do with your forearm rotation and natural loop. Right now, you're trying to keep your racquet face open to the net and slightly oriented toward the ground. That's correct. However, you're doing this through twisting the wrist.

What you want to do is to slightly pronate the forearm around the elbow, so that palm/forearm/racquet are all slightly facing the ground, prior to windup. This should lead to the elbow pointing away from the body and the racquet tip slightly pointing in. If you don't get this, then you're trying to turn the forearm with the wrist.

When you initiate the windup, the elbow lengths out a little because it's stretching out. Look for a stretch in the outer part of the forearm (the side along the thumb) near the elbow, in your windup. That lets you know that the takeback arm is stretching. If you're "raising" the forearm around the elbow, then the windup is not correct. In general, the forearm doesn't really "rise" into the trophy position, rather the rest of the body tilts into the trophy.

[sharpilistik]

Tricky,

The serve is just looking really really good right now!

But I wish I could say the same about the fh

here goes:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7v0YERcbZfs (back)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ud_qUvuO0wA (side 45)

pics

http://geocities.com/tennisadvantage/t1.jpg (7)
http://geocities.com/tennisadvantage/s1.jpg (7)

I've spent quite some time putting these up. Hopefully you can find something to help fix up the takeback. I've been trying to work on it but may have made it worse...

I'm having some major problems with spin, this is just very frustrating.

[tricky]

Sharpy -- here ya go.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7AP7HXWB

[sharpilistik]

Tricky,

That was good stuff. Thanks.

Does the wrist maintain neutral from unit turn to the end of pronation? I'm assuming it has to if you were to pronate around the elbow rather than wrist?

Issue of elbow moving away from body, this is supposed to be natural right? I don't think im purposely putting the elbow in a fixed slot. All im doing is the turn, and bringing the racket back with the nondominant hand, let go and pronate.

Upperarm on video is not going back far enough as noted. why? pivoting forearm? how to fix? is it just pronating around elbow to fix it? there has to be another reason...

Sitting back vs. turning the hips on purpose. So you sit back and then step out right? Does sitting back to initiate apply to bh?

[tricky]

Does the wrist maintain neutral from unit turn to the end of pronation? I'm assuming it has to if you were to pronate around the elbow rather than wrist?

Yup, neutral.

Issue of elbow moving away from body, this is supposed to be natural right?

Yup, it's actually a natural part of the shoulder turn.

All im doing is the turn, and bringing the racket back with the nondominant hand, let go and pronate.

Between the time that you release the unit turn and you start taking back the racquet, you stopped turning your shoulder. I can kinda see why, because a WTA-style takeback is the opposite of that. In that kind of stroke, as soon as you release the non-hitting arm, the elbow goes back into the body as the racquet climbs to takeback. Then, as the racquet drop, it starts to cross the right hip and go behind you. A "pull"-style FH is the opposite of this, and you're still adjusting.

Sitting back vs. turning the hips on purpose. So you sit back and then step out right? Does sitting back to initiate apply to bh?

Sit back on FH, which leads to rotational momentum, or rotation of hips and trunk as one unit. Rotate hip with BH, which leads to weight transfer or linear momentum of legs.

Upperarm on video is not going back far enough as noted. why? pivoting forearm? how to fix? is it just pronating around elbow to fix it? there has to be another reason...

It might help to work with a simplified stroke. See if you can get T1-T4 down correctly first. Set up your unit turn, let the torso and hip rotate around and passively turn the shoulder back. As the shoulder turns, make sure the bend at the elbow and the bend around the wrist is constant <-- treat the entire arm as "one unit." Make sure racquet tip is oriented toward the net. Don't pivot the forearm (i.e. don't "wave" the forearm) around the elbow. Observe how the upper arm moves in space as it reaches height of takeback. Then, at that point, let gravity start dropping it and swing a normal forward swing (no dragging.) Don't worry about what the arm or racquet does, just swing.

EDIT: Forgot about this detail . . .

and bringing the racket back with the nondominant hand,

Not sure if you mean you're using your non-dominant hand to take the racquet back. If so, that's not a good idea. The non-dominant arm should be completely passive, except to help set the proper grip for the hitting arm. The non-dominant arm should not be used to set the unit turn, and it shouldn't be used to initiate the takeback or push the hitting arm back. You can do that with a WTA-style stroke, but not in a pull stroke. It almost always causes the forearm to pivot (which is desirable with a WTA-style stroke, but not really desirable for a ATP-style stroke), and can screws up the rotation of the arm (making the arm think you're going to swing with external rotation.) Even if you look at Agassi or Haas, whose hitting arm is stretched out wide, that's all due to the torso rotation/unit turn sending the arm back, NOT the assistance of the non-hitting arm.

[sharpilistik]

Tricky,

Just read your edit about the non hitting arm. First I initiate using a step out, and recently trying a "sit back" then yes, AFTER THAT I do indeed use the non dominant hand to push/bring the racket further back. Heck, if i didn't the non dominant arm to assist/push/bring/take racket further back, it wouldnt go far back enough to straighten out "passively." right?

I have yet more video/pics. This time, I am pronating around elbow not wrist. and also *trying* to begin with a sit back
But still...lets start with video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLaHEUDsI2g

now with pics

http://geocities.com/tennisadvantage/e1.jpg 8
http://geocities.com/tennisadvantage/y1.jpg (7)

Let me know what you think...

[sharpilistik]

tricky...........?

[tricky]

Heck, if i didn't the non dominant arm to assist/push/bring/take racket further back, it wouldnt go far back enough to straighten out "passively." right?

Nah, not at all. During the unit turn, the combination of torso rotation and the dominant arm setting up leads to the non-dominant hand usually extending. It tends to vary with grip, the more conservative, the more naturally extended the non-hitting arm tends to be. That all said, it's not especially relevant. It makes more sense just to see the non-hitting arm as a means to set the front shoulder height. You set the non-hitting arm at about shoulder level, and that's about as active as it gets during the backswing.

I guess the female players are different; some do push the hitting-arm back with their non-hitting arm, and the forearm ends up pivoting around the elbow. But it's not really part of the men's game.

I'll follow up with another file later. But about 75% of the video looks really good. Unit turn looks good, and the footwork is much improved.

[sharpilistik]

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