Advice for my serve?

[tricky]

tricky, do you have any videos of yourself serving or playing you
can post?

I thought about doing that, to show the role of pronation and supination in the FH stroke. MUCH easier to show it than to write 1000 lines about it!

So, you want to pull the shoulder back and to the left before you start raising your hitting arm up?

Yes. You want to load the back shoulder as much as possible.

In regards to the tossing arm and raising the hitting arm, that itself is initiated from you shifting your line of sight toward the sky while you are still taking back.

Would you also like to make any comments on the tossing arm action? It doesnt feel that natural when i try to get full extention and its quite erratic.

Orientating the shoulders will help with this . Besides making sure you're not flicking the ball in the air, it also helps to watch the ball toss after your windup has started. In the beginning of the windup, you look at where you want the ball to land. You keep looking at that spot until your hands separate, which is about when the hips have already started turning and the front shoulder is past square with net. Then you track the tossing arm with your head and follow the ball toward the same point in the sky. In terms of your tossing action, if you lead the takeback with the elbow, you also want to toss the ball from the elbow. If you lead the takeback with the shoulder, then you toss the ball from the shoulder.

[sharpy]

Originally Posted by tricky

I thought about doing that, to show the role of pronation and supination in the FH stroke. MUCH easier to show it than to write 1000 lines about it!

Yes. You want to load the back shoulder as much as possible.

In regards to the tossing arm and raising the hitting arm, that itself is initiated from you shifting your line of sight toward the sky while you are still taking back.



Orientating the shoulders will help with this . Besides making sure you're not flicking the ball in the air, it also helps to watch the ball toss after your windup has started. In the beginning of the windup, you look at where you want the ball to land. You keep looking at that spot until your hands separate, which is about when the hips have already started turning and the front shoulder is past square with net. Then you track the tossing arm with your head and follow the ball toward the same point in the sky. In terms of your tossing action, if you lead the takeback with the elbow, you also want to toss the ball from the elbow. If you lead the takeback with the shoulder, then you toss the ball from the shoulder.

Tricky,

Still having trouble getting a natural trophy/wrist position/racket drop issue.... I;ve tried back shoulder over front/ aiming for sky/....I took another video, let me know what you think. From my point of view, all I accomplished is a more circular windup. I don't know. This part of the serve is extremely hard to master...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5kulWTgSaF0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7Ja2a0H9oDA

and if you have a moment have a look at my bh video... you wont be disappointed, like all my strokes, they are so close to the 'next' level...Somehow my back view video got deleted, but it showed how despite using a smile takeback, i got a b/b at contact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ47_vyy-6o

[sharpy]

tricky???

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KQL28BQQNgo

[drakulie]

Others have already given you some good advice. One thing I would recommend is to make sure you point your tossing arm all the way up. You only bring it up about 3/4 of the way.

Good luck!

[sharpy]

Originally Posted by drakulie

Others have already given you some good advice. One thing I would recommend is to make sure you point your tossing arm all the way up. You only bring it up about 3/4 of the way.

Good luck!

Thank you. You seem to have mastered your own serve. What's your take on getting the racket to drop deeper down that back?

[drakulie]

^^

1. The deeper the racquet drop, the more "space" you have to accelerate up to the contact point.

2. The deeper the racquet drop (if you have your arm pointed straight up), the more torque you are getting. By stretching the muscles in your chest, as a result of having the tossing arm fully extended up, and having the racquet drop to it's maximum, the more speed you are going to obtain by releasing those muscles and uncoling them into the shot.

In the photo below, you could see my tossing arm is pointing straight up. From the tip of my fingers in my tossing arm to my right elbow you could draw a straight line into the ground. You could also see my chest being stretched.



In this photo sequence, you could see as my tossing arm goes down, it begins to swing to the left (which keeps my chest stretched), as the racquet drops straight down, and then begins it's accelearation up the contact point.

(sort of like a see-saw)



Good luck. You have a great base to begin with your current serve. A few tweeks here and there, and you will have an awesome serve.

[sharpy]

thanks for the screenshots. I really want to master this serve.. Have a look at my racket drop potential

http://www.geocities.com/mastamoda/rckt.jpg

1st pic is my current drop with an "automatic" drop when i go through the serve motion

2nd top pic is my maximum shoulder flexibility going through the motion with my hands

3rd pic bottom is pete sampras's drop

[drakulie]

^^^Awesome. The second picture is where you want to be. Look how close it is to Sampras'. They are nearly identical. Notice how the tip of the frame is past the butt (nearly reaching the bottom of the shorts). Good stuff.

It takes time, but you will get there if you continue working on it.

remember though to keep that tossing arm going all the way up.

[sharpy]

Yea.. right now i only serve at about 80's. Just imagine if I got the racket drop down....I might be able to serve like you!

[drakulie]

^^^ LOL. Well, you would be surprised how a few tweeks could add mph to your serve. The racquet not completely dropping, coupled with the tossing arm not going all the way up is defintiely robbing you of some mph.

Keep us posted on how your progress is going. I have to hit the courts again soon. I've been having trouble with my neck and haven't been playing much.

Anyway, good luck, and like I said, keep us updated on your progress. Thanks for sharing your vid.

[tricky]

and if you have a moment have a look at my bh video... you wont be disappointed, like all my strokes, they are so close to the 'next' level...Somehow my back view video got deleted, but it showed how despite using a smile takeback, i got a b/b at contact.

You are currently tucking in the front elbow, but you don't want to do that. The vertical axis of your takeback is a U. The horizontal axis of your takeback will be a straight line, not an arc around the body.

As a result, as you take back the racquet and rotate the torso, the front elbow will naturally straighten out very early and start moving away from the torso. This is necessary in order for the takeback to mantain a straight line in the horizontal axis.

Smile pattern is classical; in classical strokes, you do not swing across the body and you do not take the racquet back across the body. It's not that different from a old-fashioned closed stance woodie FH. It's easier to execute if you trace the U with your elbows rather than the shoulders, since the shoulders will make you inclined to swing around the body.

took another video, let me know what you think. From my point of view, all I accomplished is a more circular windup. I don't know. This part of the serve is extremely hard to master...

Yeah, it's the way you're taking the racquet back. You're not really loading the shoulder until you start setting up the trophy, and this is constricting your racquet drop.

When you initiate the takeback, it's a little bit like a butterfly swim stroke. You want to take the arm laterally, so that the arm crosses well behind your right hip (and racquet tip start pointing yoward left side fence) before you start setting up the trophy.

Right now, it doesn't look like you're pronating correctly through the ball. BUT, part of that is because you're constricting your shoulder movement instead of letting it fully rotate externally. That itself comes from your takeback being constricted in the horizontal axis. One that might help you is to keep a slight bend around your left rib through the entire serve. This keeps your front shoulder "under" the back even through the toss, and it prevents your back shoulder from trying to windmill dunk on the ball.

[sharpy]

Originally Posted by tricky

You are currently tucking in the front elbow, but you don't want to do that. The vertical axis of your takeback is a U. The horizontal axis of your takeback will be a straight line, not an arc around the body.

As a result, as you take back the racquet and rotate the torso, the front elbow will naturally straighten out very early and start moving away from the torso. This is necessary in order for the takeback to mantain a straight line in the horizontal axis.

Smile pattern is classical; in classical strokes, you do not swing across the body and you do not take the racquet back across the body. It's not that different from a old-fashioned closed stance woodie FH. It's easier to execute if you trace the U with your elbows rather than the shoulders, since the shoulders will make you inclined to swing around the body.

What exactly is the difference between tracing "u" w/ elbow or shoulder? What am I tracing it with currently?

Tell me more about this straight line/horizontal axis.. I wasnt aware that im arcing the takeback...?

[tricky]

Tell me more about this straight line/horizontal axis.. I wasnt aware that im arcing the takeback...?

Hmm, it probably makes more sense if you've messed around with a 1H BH or an old-school closed-stance FH.In a "classical" stroke, the idea isn't to maximize your racquet speed but to put weight behind the racquet into the path of the ball.

If we were looking down at you from a blimp, in a classical crosscourt shot, your forward swing (and even your body) would go back in a straight line from the ball, and then travel in a straight line toward the ball. Once the racquet passes the POC, then it comes around and finishes across the shoulder. That is what we see overhead. Of course, there is also some kind of down-to-up motion with the swing too.

Right now, you're swinging across your body in the BH. You don't want to do this. Instead of producing that line form and toward the ball, you're swinging across the body, somewhat like a flatter version of a golf swing.

The smile pattern itself is designed to produce that line. It constricts your shoulder rotation, so that you only forward swing longitiduinally (down to up), not laterally (across the body.) This way, you avoid opening up and your driving arm (and thus your weight transfer) is allowed to extend into the line of the shot.

However, the smile pattern works when it's traced with the elbows (or the upper arms) and here only in the vertical plane. That is, no matter how much your hips and torso rotate, the U will always be in the same lateral plane. That means that as you take back, the driving/rear elbow will move away from the body, and as you drive through the POC, the elbow will also move away from the body. In both at takeback and through POC, the arm has automatically straightened out due to the elbow having moved away from the body. Alternately, the guiding/front elbow stays fairly tucked until the racquet passes the POC.

This might help:

First, using your racquet, imagine that you're tracing a big, big U on an invisible wall with the racquet tip. Your hands to guide the takeback and forward racquet. Notice how, as your body rotates toward and away from the wall, one of your arms will straighten, and the other will bend. Notice how your elbows move relative to your body.

Next, concentrate on keeping the back shoulder above the front shoulder through the whole U. You'll find that if you keep the left side of your body straight, and the right side slightly bent around the right rib, this will be easier.

Finally try tracing the U with the elbows, now trying to make the elbows move in a straight line toward the ball. Your stroke will look much abbreviated, and you might see "wristness" or a SSC between the takeback and forward swing. If you don't, you might be swinging around the body.

There are a lot of words, but really you're *THIS* close to getting the BH pattern down!

[sharpy]

Originally Posted by tricky

Yeah, it's the way you're taking the racquet back. You're not really loading the shoulder until you start setting up the trophy, and this is constricting your racquet drop.

When you initiate the takeback, it's a little bit like a butterfly swim stroke. You want to take the arm laterally, so that the arm crosses well behind your right hip (and racquet tip start pointing yoward left side fence) before you start setting up the trophy.

Right now, it doesn't look like you're pronating correctly through the ball. BUT, part of that is because you're constricting your shoulder movement instead of letting it fully rotate externally. That itself comes from your takeback being constricted in the horizontal axis. One that might help you is to keep a slight bend around your left rib through the entire serve. This keeps your front shoulder "under" the back even through the toss, and it prevents your back shoulder from trying to windmill dunk on the ball.

Ok.

"When you initiate the takeback, it's a little bit like a butterfly swim stroke. You want to take the arm laterally, so that the arm crosses well behind your right hip"
Is this something done before you even start to raise your arm? If so, I might already be doing this
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7Ja2a0H9oDA&feature=user

What I did notice from the backview is that the trophy position looks awkward and the wrist position too.

[tricky]

What I did notice from the backview is that the trophy position looks awkward and the wrist position too.

Yeah, in the trophy position, the right hand should be near and about the same level as the right shoulder. There's a couple of reasons why . . .

1) I'm not sure whether you're probably orienting upwards as you set up the trophy position. Will has a good video of this over at his fuzzy site, where he throws his racquet straight up in the air.

In order to do that, it's not just your head is looking at the highest point in the sky, but that your whole body twists upwards to make this happen. It's that twisting action that helps to facilitate the high ball toss, the big knee drop, and it's also what actually sets up the trophy.

If you leave this segment out, then theoretically your racquet would stay low, your knees should only be slightly bent, and the the tossing arm doesn't get up above the shoulder. In other words, you would be set up to hit the ball as if it was a "smash forehand." It is this whole body turning toward the sky that sets up all those above elements, and in the meantime, all your back arm should do is to concentrate on taking the racquet further back.

2) In your arm takeback, for now, try pointing your racquet tip between the right side fence and the ground, with the racquet face opening up. In other words a little bit higher than what you're doing now and not so much toward the ground.

[sharpy]

Originally Posted by tricky

Yeah, in the trophy position, the right hand should be near and about the same level as the right shoulder. There's a couple of reasons why . . .

1) I'm not sure whether you're probably orienting upwards as you set up the trophy position. Will has a good video of this over at his fuzzy site, where he throws his racquet straight up in the air.

In order to do that, it's not just your head is looking at the highest point in the sky, but that your whole body twists upwards to make this happen. It's that twisting action that helps to facilitate the high ball toss, the big knee drop, and it's also what actually sets up the trophy.

If you leave this segment out, then theoretically your racquet would stay low, your knees should only be slightly bent, and the the tossing arm doesn't get up above the shoulder. In other words, you would be set up to hit the ball as if it was a "smash forehand." It is this whole body turning toward the sky that sets up all those above elements, and in the meantime, all your back arm should do is to concentrate on taking the racquet further back.

2) In your arm takeback, for now, try pointing your racquet tip between the right side fence and the ground, with the racquet face opening up. In other words a little bit higher than what you're doing now and not so much toward the ground.

I did notice guys like federer have a fairly high trophy position about head level?

[tricky]

I did notice guys like federer have a fairly high trophy position about head level?

That's a really good point. The trophy with hand at roughly shoulder-level is calibrated against a continental grip. Federer's grip is between Eastern BH and continental. As the hand moves toward an Eastern backhand grip, the hand will be higher.

[sharpy]

Originally Posted by tricky

That's a really good point. The trophy with hand at roughly shoulder-level is calibrated against a continental grip. Federer's grip is between Eastern BH and continental. As the hand moves toward an Eastern backhand grip, the hand will be higher.

So, me using a continental does that mean something is wrong (trophy at head height?)

[tricky]

In your case, it's related to how you're setting up the trophy position. The trophy position is set up partially by your body re-orienting for a upward swing. Not as much from raising up your arm up and away from the body. That's part of it, but most of it really is from twisting the body so that you can "throw the racquet upwards." This is more apparent if you try the sock exercise.

[BeHappy]

Just a suggestion, maybe you should just tell sharpy what to do without explaining, it seems to me it's the explanations which are confusing sharpy, why not just write a paragraph detailing what he should work on next time he serves?