Advice for my serve?

[BeHappy]

this is insane, you have basic flaws in your service motion and you're ignoring them and approaching this as if you're fine tuning it.

Your knee bend, as pointed out by Solat, is pretty non existant too.

[sharpy]

Originally Posted by BeHappy

this is insane, you have basic flaws in your service motion and you're ignoring them and approaching this as if you're fine tuning it.

No its not that insane, gorilla. leg drive only contributes to 10% and backwards lean perhaps even less % to the serve speed

but the takeback is the most important. yes, those minor flaws are important, but without the basic takeback in place youve got nothing

[tricky]

but the takeback is the most important. yes, those minor flaws are important, but without the basic takeback in place youve got nothing

Yeah, I'm trying to avoid carpet bombing you with stuff . . . Also this is actually interrelated. Once the takeback is corrected, the knee bend will be deeper. Also, your ball toss will start to improve because your front shoulder will not be as constricted.

could you please explain more, wouldnt this kind of lead into a lat raise anyway?

Not as much, because the takeback is a stretch, and because the elbow hooking upwards is not the primary arm movement of the takeback.

The primary arm movement is that the arm stretches laterally until it crosses the right side of your body. However, for it to stretch naturally, the elbow has to either hook slightly upwards (i.e. away from midline of body) or slightly downwards (towards midline of body.) The former is what you want.

The bend in the elbow is mostly preserved through the takeback (this also lets your body know it's a stretch and not a lat raise or concentric movement.) It's only when you start turning to set the trophy position does the bend in the elbow change.

Wow, something I didn't notice . . . It looks like you're rotating your forearm (supinating) in the takeback in order to open up the racquet face. Don't do that. Let the arm travelling laterally open up the racquet face.

[sharpy]

wow. good eyes.

yes i am just playing around today supinating to open up the racket face because I cant seem to find a way to correct the racket face so i dont get a "down and to the right" wrist position at the trophy....

[JCo872]

The number one source of power on a serve is pronation - the turning outward of the hand and arm on impact. You can have pretty lousy fundamentals, but if you get this right you can still crack a serve. This is why pros can warm-up at about 40% and still hit extremely hard serves. This is why you can hit an overhead that hits the ground and then jumps over the opposite fence. The torquing motion is like a mini atom-bomb in terms of power generation.

In Sharpy's serve, he isn't getting any pronation at all:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/sharpy_serve.php

[tricky]

Thinking it over, it seems the underlying problem is that in your takeback really is that you inadvertently turn it partially into a "positive" or "concentric" movement. I think one thing that bothered me was how your racquet face didn't really open up until very late in your takeback, and to me that seems counterintuitive if you were stretching out the arm.

I *think* it'll help just to keep in mind that you don't want the elbow to straighten in the takeback or as you set the trophy. The elbow will more bend more as you get to the trophy position, not lengthen out. And due to that, it will preserve the takeback as a proper stretch as well as prevent you from excessively "raising" the arm and then the hand/wrist.

BTW, Sharpy, did you say you were pushing 80 right now on the serve?

In Sharpy's serve, he isn't getting any pronation at all:

Yeah, the external rotation of his arm is off, so he's kinda slapping the ball down. I'm kinda hoping once the takeback thing is resolved, the pronation will start happening for him.

[sharpy]

Originally Posted by tricky

Thinking it over, it seems the underlying problem is that in your takeback really is that you inadvertently turn it partially into a "positive" or "concentric" movement. I think one thing that bothered me was how your racquet face didn't really open up until very late in your takeback, and to me that seems counterintuitive if you were stretching out the arm.

I *think* it'll help just to keep in mind that you don't want the elbow to straighten in the takeback or as you set the trophy. The elbow will more bend more as you get to the trophy position, not lengthen out. And due to that, it will preserve the takeback as a proper stretch as well as prevent you from excessively "raising" the arm and then the hand/wrist.

BTW, Sharpy, did you say you were pushing 80 right now on the serve?



Yeah, the external rotation of his arm is off, so he's kinda slapping the ball down. I'm kinda hoping once the takeback thing is resolved, the pronation will start happening for him.

LOL yeah. 80's... even have a 90 once in a blue moon this is with maybe 40% of my racket drop

care to offer some clear cut solutions for that takeback?

[JCo872]

Originally Posted by tricky

Yeah, the external rotation of his arm is off, so he's kinda slapping the ball down. I'm kinda hoping once the takeback thing is resolved, the pronation will start happening for him.

Gotcha. I see you all have been working hard analyzing the takeback and I agree that setting up properly makes finishing (in this case pronation) much easier and more natural.

[tricky]

care to offer some clear cut solutions for that takeback?

So the basic things you want to about the arm movement
1) Primary movement: lateral (across the body)
2) Secondary: elbow starts to hook upwards (or moves away from midline of body)
3) Preserve elbow bend through the takeback portion. Don't straighten arm.
4) NO forearm rotation.
5) If this is working for you, the racquet face should open a little toward net, between ground and net and racquet tip should be pointed toward right side fence.

Best way for now is to just isolate that part of the movement (i.e. just work on swinging forward and coordinating with the hips.) Don't worry about the ball toss, trophy, or upward swing. Just concentrate on getting the shoulder rotation down (and keeping the front shoulder below the back shoulder.) If the rotation is correct, then you should feel as if your pinkie is pronating the racquet arm.

Gotcha. I see you all have been working hard analyzing the takeback and I agree that setting up properly makes finishing (in this case pronation) much easier and more natural.

I confess this is the first time I've really tried to do this through a computer. I admire instructors like you who can make these descriptions so clear without, you know, being "hands on."

Once you feel that this is good, then add back in the 2nd half of the service motion and work on ball toss and upward swing.

[sharpy]

Originally Posted by tricky

So the basic things you want to about the arm movement
1) Primary movement: lateral (across the body)
2) Secondary: elbow starts to hook upwards (or moves away from midline of body)
3) Preserve elbow bend through the takeback portion. Don't straighten arm.
4) NO forearm rotation.
5) If this is working for you, the racquet face should open a little toward net, between ground and net and racquet tip should be pointed toward right side fence.

Best way for now is to just isolate that part of the movement (i.e. just work on swinging forward and coordinating with the hips.) Don't worry about the ball toss, trophy, or upward swing. Just concentrate on getting the shoulder rotation down (and keeping the front shoulder below the back shoulder.) If the rotation is correct, then you should feel as if your pinkie is pronating the racquet arm.



I confess this is the first time I've really tried to do this through a computer. I admire instructors like you who can make these descriptions so clear without, you know, being "hands on."

Once you feel that this is good, then add back in the 2nd half of the service motion and work on ball toss and upward swing.

okay, the first part of the service motion is taking the racket back laterally?

I think i do everything ok until its time to bring the elbow up...

1. bringing the arm laterally back. This is pretty easy, just kinda take the racket arm back a little further than your right hip...this is all done before the racket raises up (correct?)

I think maybe my understand of the proper elbow pivot upwards is a little bit flawed.

There is so many ways to bring the elbow up, but im not sure exactly which way.

[WBF]

Ohhh, sharpy is on hi-techtennis! Congrats!

PS: It's awesome that you're working to improve your serve, and that these guys are so helpful. Wish I could learn from all the text, but it just goes right over my head

[sharpy]

lets try this i'll tell you what i think here

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/p1.jpg

take arm back laterally. pretty much ok here just maybe a little bit more back, but that said theres servers who just start raising up from here


http://geocities.com/mastamoda/p2.jpg

shoulder starting to load up. still looks like im ready to hit a 140 mph here. only thing is the noticable wrist position

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/p3.jpg

Things are starting to go haywire from here on....

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/p4.jpg

take a look at the shoulder and you'll see that its not really loaded, whatever loading was taking place is all screwed up, maybe due to the down wrist position.
instead of the shoulder muscle being parrallel to the back fence, it is then perpendicular....

[tricky]

1. bringing the arm laterally back. This is pretty easy, just kinda take the racket arm back a little further than your right hip...this is all done before the racket raises up (correct?)

Yup. Remember, mantain elbow bend and let the elbow kinda slide upwards a little. It should feel like a stretch.

I think maybe my understand of the proper elbow pivot upwards is a little bit flawed.

Yeah, this is why the Sampras model is difficult to learn if you don't already know how the body sets up the trophy.

Basically, the idea goes that the pivot happens automatically when you combine a takeback with the body orienting toward the sky. In other words, it should happen automatically if the takeback itself is correct.

The reason is because if the elbow doesn't pivot, then your body will lose balance, and the way your front and back shoulders are set (and thus the shoulder rotation) will not be preserved.

In other words, your body will decide for you what is the "right" pivot motion. You just need to fix the takeback so it knows what you're doing.

[JCo872]

Originally Posted by WBF

Ohhh, sharpy is on hi-techtennis! Congrats!

Sharpy has a very good motion over all. I really like his rhythm and timing. I was just struck by the lack of pronation.

[sharpy]

thanks jeff.

if i could buy pronation i would

[WBF]

sharpy: it just takes time. You should be able to use it right away, but controlling your wrist so that the serve isn't wild might take a bit of time and practice!

I definately agree that this is one of the more important aspects. The knee bend mentioned above is rather silly in comparison.

[tricky]

if i could buy pronation i would

If you contact me, I can get you a discount to pronationenlargement.com. Satisfaction guaranteed!

[sharpy]

Originally Posted by tricky

If you contact me, I can get you a discount to pronationenlargement.com. Satisfaction guaranteed!

sweet. how much would it cost so i can serve as fast as roddick, as much spin as sampras and with the placement of agassi?

on a serious note tricky would you respond to my post above yours a few posts back? your take?

[tricky]

how much would it cost so i can serve as fast as roddick, as much spin as sampras and with the placement of agassi?

No problem. Just sign up for our Service Viagra product and you too can dance like Roddick, have hair like Agassi, and have skin like Sampras. In 1000fps no less. Be a chick magnet like Federer or your money back!

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/p1.jpg

take arm back laterally. pretty much ok here just maybe a little bit more back, but that said theres servers who just start raising up from here

So, at this point, Sampras's racquet face has already started to open up because he's already started his lateral arm takeback. In your case, I think you were rotating your forearm to open up the racquet face, which you don't want to do. But, otherwise, yes you have the right idea.

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/p2.jpg

shoulder starting to load up. still looks like im ready to hit a 140 mph here. only thing is the noticable wrist position

One thing you want to notice is how far back Sampras's shoulder is from the first clip. This is a key thing I want to point out, because in your frame, the shoulder is no longer going back and now you're pivoting the elbow on its own accord.

At this point, you may ask -- well, my shoulder can't go back further, how am I supposed to pivot then? The body. The body drives the pivot.

Sampras's body orients itself much higher than yours (front side straightens and stretches) and it bends around more. This enables the arm takeback to continue, except that now the elbow will pivot. In fact, the elbow actually "sinks" a little into the trophy position if you coil around properly enough.

Plus, as you coil your body upwards, this also enables the higher ball toss and the deeper knee bend.

I also want to emphasize that the front/left rib remains slightly bent, and the back/right ribs remain straight through the windup, takeback, and initiation of the forward swing. This helps preserve the "balance" between the shoulders and the shoulder rotation that you want.

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/p3.jpg

Things are starting to go haywire from here on....

With both Picture 2 and 3, because the shoulder has mostly stopped taking back, what you have now is a concentric/positive movement or a "lat raise." The elbow pivots upwards; the wrist follows the elbow, the hand finishes raising it. At this point, pronation will not really happen even if you throw the ball way over to the left because the shoulder rotation is incomplete.

So the thing you want to nail down is that the takeback of the arm is continous, that the takeback is primarily lateral, and that whatever goes on with the elbow is coordinated with this lateral motion of the takeback. The elbow is not independent, and the elbow does not do anything without consent of the body or the shoulder.

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/p4.jpg

take a look at the shoulder and you'll see that its not really loaded, whatever loading was taking place is all screwed up, maybe due to the down wrist position.
instead of the shoulder muscle being parrallel to the back fence, it is then perpendicular....

At this point, you're still generating terrific power from your body (and you still get a upward swing), which is why you do hit the ball hard. But the arm doesn't whip and you don't feel like you're hammering down on the ball (i.e. pronation.) It again goes back to the same thing. The arm is primarily interesting in taking back the shoulder and making sure the front-back shoulder balance stays (which is helped by the elbow.) It's really the rotation and twisting of the body that will set up the trophy position.

In a way, the pronation itself is a reward for the rotation being correct. You would feel as if your pinkie easily slams the forearm down onto the ball, and that the overall motion is like a hammer coming down onto the ball.

Or to put it another scenario:

Say you don't twist your body upwards. at all You should expect your racquet arm to be no higher than sternum level before you initiate the forward portion (i.e. turn hips forwards) of the stroke. Even though the swing is wrong and will lead to the ball traveling forward instead of down, the rotation of your shoulder is correct. The elbow will still pivot around so that you will have a racquet drop. The actual motion of your shoulder is still correct, and you'll still experience pronation.

However, say you now try to simulate a trophy position by pivoting the elbow upwards at the end of your takeback before you initiate the forward swing. The hand is high at head level. The racquet drop decreases. The pronation significantly decreases. The rotation is off and starts to feel slower.

What this says is that the body dictates the trophy position and the pivoting of the elbow. The trophy position does not exist without the upward orientation of the body. The body enables it; the body drives it.

[sharpy]

Originally Posted by tricky

No problem. Just sign up for our Service Viagra product and you too can dance like Roddick, have hair like Agassi, and have skin like Sampras. In 1000fps no less. Be a chick magnet like Federer or your money back!



So, at this point, Sampras's racquet face has already started to open up because he's already started his lateral arm takeback. In your case, I think you were rotating your forearm to open up the racquet face, which you don't want to do. But, otherwise, yes you have the right idea.



One thing you want to notice is how far back Sampras's shoulder is from the first clip. This is a key thing I want to point out, because in your frame, the shoulder is no longer going back and now you're pivoting the elbow on its own accord.

At this point, you may ask -- well, my shoulder can't go back further, how am I supposed to pivot then? The body. The body drives the pivot.

Sampras's body orients itself much higher than yours (front side straightens and stretches) and it bends around more. This enables the arm takeback to continue, except that now the elbow will pivot. In fact, the elbow actually "sinks" a little into the trophy position if you coil around properly enough.

Plus, as you coil your body upwards, this also enables the higher ball toss and the deeper knee bend.

I also want to emphasize that the front/left rib remains slightly bent, and the back/right ribs remain straight through the windup, takeback, and initiation of the forward swing. This helps preserve the "balance" between the shoulders and the shoulder rotation that you want.



With both Picture 2 and 3, because the shoulder has mostly stopped taking back, what you have now is a concentric/positive movement or a "lat raise." The elbow pivots upwards; the wrist follows the elbow, the hand finishes raising it. At this point, pronation will not really happen even if you throw the ball way over to the left because the shoulder rotation is incomplete.

So the thing you want to nail down is that the takeback of the arm is continous, that the takeback is primarily lateral, and that whatever goes on with the elbow is coordinated with this lateral motion of the takeback. The elbow is not independent, and the elbow does not do anything without consent of the body or the shoulder.

I think i'm starting to get this....

You're right about the 2nd picture where my shoulder "stops" taking back. But really is the taking the shoulder back a concious decision?

Because basically, I just think first about taking the arm back laterally back ( to first picture), and then to raise my arm I just think of pivoting the elbow up.
Am I missing something?? (in all honesty, I don't think about loading the shoulders one bit as i raise my arm to the trophy....just elbow pivot up)