Men's 3.5 National Champs = self raters??

[JavierLW]

Originally Posted by Keruchina

This website offers the clearest description that I have seen of how the national benchmark ratings are calculated.

According to Bob Greene USPTA, USTA Certified Verifier & Chairman of USTA NTRP Computer Sub-Committee:

Annually each Section of the USTA will send up to twenty teams at all levels and genders to USA League National Championship Events. Those teams will play against each other in four flights of four or five teams in each flight. The draw is done at random. One event may be Florida, Texas, New England and Hawaii ... the next Eastern, Southern, ******* and Northern California. Before and during these matches, no less than four of the most experienced NTRP Verifiers from different areas of the country will research the players match result history, multi-year rating history and player profile information. They will then observe the players competing against several different teams over a period of three days. All match results are entered into the NTRP Computer during the events. The Verifiers are observing and are more specifically looking for lopsided match results, disparity of level between doubles partners and player improvement over the course of a season. The players who emerge from their respective flights to the semifinal and final rounds are given "absolute ratings". That rating is a number that is static for the purpose of comparison against other players. These "Benchmark Ratings" are entered into the NTRP Computer and the computer program is run calculating ratings for all of the players who competed at the event. Although the NTRP Computer has an excellent track record of being correct, the National Verifiers makes a few adjustments based on reasons stated above. All of these players are National Benchmarks and their Ratings are deemed not changeable by regulation. These National Benchmark Ratings are entered into the NTRP Computer and will filter down in each respective USTA Section and all players competing in NTRP audited and regulated venues will receive a rating if they played two or more matches. The primary goal and purpose of this methodology is to create and maintain uniformity in ratings on a nationwide basis. No matter what the picture appears to be from the bottom looking up, it is painted from the top down.

I believe that the full 1.0 bumps are made in an effort to keep the system from getting too distorted because of fast-improving players, which makes sense. I started playing tennis a year ago and started the season as a legitimate, strong 3.0. I ended the season as a strong 3.5. I got bumped up a full 1.0 after 3.0 nationals. I am currently getting my *ss handed to me on a regular basis by 4.0 players. It's not fun, but I understand why they bumped the fast-improving players: they don't want us screwing up the whole computer system and making it less fun for everyone else. All in all, I think that the people organizing the rating system do an admirable job with a difficult task.

That's kind of what I wanted to hint at. It's either you have something undesireable happen to a very small amount of players (who did get to go to nationals at least), or you screw up the system for the majority of the rest of the players.

[kylebarendrick]

I have a feeling that the information from Bob Greene is a few years out of date. He sites in multiple places that verifiers are used at rating clinics and tournaments. I don't believe this is the case. As an example does this:

Over 85% of all player self-ratings on their profiles are verified as being correct at these clinics and verified tournaments

line up with anyone's recent experience?

[equinox]

They must have pissed off some people to get a full 1.0 jump.

They're probably mid 4.0 level which should make them more competitive than 6-1 6-1 thrashing each.

Guessing they're tanking matches to drop back right back down.

[vizsla]

I found the thread...

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=100925

[Roforot]

http://www.texas.usta.com/usaleaguet...categoryid=206

look at how proud Bob Bender is to be a 3.0 chamion! Congratulations!

[lostinamerica]

Originally Posted by Roforot

http://www.texas.usta.com/usaleaguet...categoryid=206

look at how proud Bob Bender is to be a 3.0 chamion! Congratulations!

Who is Bob Bender.. doesn't somebodyhave to be crowned champion?

I am guessing you know him.

[vizsla]

Yea, he captained a 3.0 team that won in 04, winning the final match 5-0. His senior team (which he captained) also won that year. Then, in '05, his 3.5 team finished fourth at nationals. (note: his 3.0 senior team was also fourth this year at nationals). How does he do it??!!!

Oh maybe because...

Berco Neiman, Joseph N. Hevey, Ulrich H. Lorscheider and Wyatt D. Sharp got bumped a whole pint to 4.0 this year from his 3.0 team.

[Keruchina]

Originally Posted by kylebarendrick

I have a feeling that the information from Bob Greene is a few years out of date. He sites in multiple places that verifiers are used at rating clinics and tournaments. I don't believe this is the case. As an example does this:

line up with anyone's recent experience?

Some of the information, e.g. the info about the verifier clinics is definitely out of date, but I believe that the national benchmark calculation portion is still accurate. I've read a similar description on regional USTA pages of how rating are calculated at nationals.

[fe6250]

Originally Posted by vizsla

Yea, he captained a 3.0 team that won in 04, winning the final match 5-0. His senior team (which he captained) also won that year. Then, in '05, his 3.5 team finished fourth at nationals. (note: his 3.0 senior team was also fourth this year at nationals). How does he do it??!!!

Oh maybe because...

Berco Neiman, Joseph N. Hevey, Ulrich H. Lorscheider and Wyatt D. Sharp got bumped a whole pint to 4.0 this year from his 3.0 team.

Was Backboard on this team (He won a 3.0 national championship this year)? If so - who is he? Interesting that he hasn't weighed in on this thread.

[JavierLW]

Originally Posted by fe6250

Was Backboard on this team (He won a 3.0 national championship this year)? If so - who is he? Interesting that he hasn't weighed in on this thread.

Probally because the thread title states that we are talking about the sandbaggers who won 3.5, not the sandbaggers who won 3.0.

[fe6250]

Originally Posted by JavierLW

Probally because the thread title states that we are talking about the sandbaggers who won 3.5, not the sandbaggers who won 3.0.

GOOD POINT!

[Roforot]

Originally Posted by lostinamerica

Who is Bob Bender.. doesn't somebodyhave to be crowned champion?

I am guessing you know him.

Only by reputation.

Originally Posted by vizsla

Yea, he captained a 3.0 team that won in 04, winning the final match 5-0. His senior team (which he captained) also won that year. Then, in '05, his 3.5 team finished fourth at nationals. (note: his 3.0 senior team was also fourth this year at nationals). How does he do it??!!!

Oh maybe because...

Berco Neiman, Joseph N. Hevey, Ulrich H. Lorscheider and Wyatt D. Sharp got bumped a whole pint to 4.0 this year from his 3.0 team.

Berco looks serious in that picture as well. I think the headband alone is worth a .25 bump

Bob Bender reminds me of the episode of Seinfeld where Kramer's inspiring everyone with how he rises to the top of a dojo, and then when Elaine sees him, she finds out he's sparring against 11 year olds!

[tfm1973]

Originally Posted by Roforot

reminds me of the episode of Seinfeld where Kramer's inspiring everyone with how he rises to the top of a dojo, and then when Elaine sees him, she finds out he's sparring against 11 year olds!

LMAO! +1

[Backboard]

I played for Bender in 2007. I can't talk about 2004 or 2005. He captains out of a large public facility with a ton of players. Each year he holds team tryouts for new players. Team tryouts are held at a local college and involve a large number of interested players. Only the best are added to his roster. Players not making the cut are usually picked up by other teams.

Last year he held tough and frequent team practices sometimes with local Pro's helping with strokes & strategy. He also organized a team singles "ladder" and doubles "ladder" with intense challenge matches throughout the year. This forced everyone to compete for their spot on the team.

He always told everyone to play hard and guys never tanked matches. But nearly everyone improved and some improved dramatically. He is very organized and coordinates team activities well. Bottom line _ serious, competitive players love to play for him and want to be on his team. Social players find other teams.

I hope to play on his 3.5 team this year (if I make the cut!)

[New Kid On the Block]

Isn't it a bit stupid when the team that wins get three guys bumped up two levels. That is blatently cheating. SoCal should be DQ'd and the team from Intermountain should be the National champions.

[fe6250]

Originally Posted by Backboard

Each year he holds team tryouts for new players.

How many of these players are self-rated? If the players are all computer rated players, fine. But to hold a tryout and then rate people is what most teams have to do in order to compete at Nationals on the lower levels. That method is generally considered a common form of sand-bagging for these lower levels of tennis.

[raiden031]

Originally Posted by New Kid On the Block

Isn't it a bit stupid when the team that wins get three guys bumped up two levels. That is blatently cheating. SoCal should be DQ'd and the team from Intermountain should be the National champions.

I disagree with this. Not that these particular guys weren't purposely playing too low, but I don't think a double bump automatically means someone is cheating. I think USTA made an adjustment this year because there were too many skilled players in the lower levels. From the posts of people on this board across different sections, there seems to be a consensus that alot of people got bumped up this year compared to other years.

Also, I think its possible for someone to improve enough to get a double bump. Lets say someone self-rated in January for winter mix. By Nationals, 10 months will have gone by for them to improve. Someone with athletic ability and/or good instruction could go up by two levels. If someone is computer-rated, then they have even longer to improve before their next year-end rating is generated.

[Backboard]

Originally Posted by New Kid On the Block

Isn't it a bit stupid when the team that wins get three guys bumped up two levels. That is blatently cheating. SoCal should be DQ'd and the team from Intermountain should be the National champions.

REGARDING SO CAL MENs 3.5
I do not know the team nor any of the players. But checking TennisLink it looks like a lot of teams were competitive with them at Nationals. So CAL beat Inter-Mtn 4 -1 in the finals but only beat Southern 3 - 2 in the semi-finals. In their round robin they beat Nor CAL only 3 - 2 and they beat Hawaii only 3 - 2. That's pretty competitive.

My guess is that Sou CAL put together a strong team and got better as the year went on. They also got some breaks along the way. To call them cheaters is just a cheap shot. It is always easier to criticize the winners than to be successful in your own right. The name callers are largely ignorant individuals who have never been successful in their own right.

NEW KID,
Grow up and get a life of your own. Try to be successful at something yourself. Stop the whining and the name-calling. When another team is successful have the COMMON DECENCY to congratulate them.

[fe6250]

I guess the sportsmanship police have invaded this thread.

[Backboard]

Originally Posted by fe6250

How many of these players are self-rated? If the players are all computer rated players, fine. But to hold a tryout and then rate people is what most teams have to do in order to compete at Nationals on the lower levels. That method is generally considered a common form of sand-bagging for these lower levels of tennis.

fe250,
I'm not sure. I play but I do not captain. I attended one tryout and I think both computer and self-rated players were there. My guess is most were self-rated. I was told the tryout was for level 3.0 players and if I thought I was better than 3.0 the captain said he would help me find another team.

I don't know how he handled ratings nor what discussions took place. But I think most guys were going to self-rate 3.0 anyway. Most guys that did not make the cut ended up on other 3.0 teams. Personally, I had a second team that would have taken me but I wanted to play for this captain. He did get a lot of good players for the team and he made them better as the season progressed.

I don;t think that's sandbagging. I think it is building a strong team and then driving guys hard to improve. Also, I can also tell you I never had so much fun on a tennis team.