How do you approach a match with a clearly superior opponent?

[investorofmercy]

I hope you are not playing me...I hate Santoroized players...lol I am playing Ultimate also at 3.5. Not sure what level you are but I am seeded 22nd and play the 109th seeded player.

[investorofmercy]

I guess the key at that level regardless of how good they are IN the level is....limit your mistakes. Most points are won on unforced errors at 3.5.

[SlapShot]

Originally Posted by smoothtennis

In pure playing ability very strong 4.0 to weak 4.5. I've been playing 4.5 tourney's so far this year (1-3 record), then will do this Open, and back to play the 4.0 guys for the rest of the year I guess, unless it just isn't as fun. Mayby I expect too much of these 5.0's. I am expecting unreal killer forehands, explosive backhads with huge topspin, crushing returns, and serves at 115 mph, including massive kick and twist serves. I could be building this up in my mind, but it sounds incredibly fun, LOL!

Slapshot - So you've done this? How bad do you think the mismatch was? Were you able to get into any good long rallies? Your post encourages me!

I've run into some 4.5 level players in mixed, and had moderate success (lost one match 2 and 3, and another 3 and 3), played some dubs with a couple of 4.5 players and we were on serve when we ran out of time, and hit almost weekly with a 5.5/6.0 player who isn't 100% yet. I know that I wouldn't have a chance against the 5.5 player if we were to play a match, but it's just an adjustment thing (pace/topspin).

To be fair, I've got a 3.5 rating but somewhat regularly get asked what college I played for.

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by spot

LuckyR- all I know is that I repeatedly beat people far better than me just by resolving to make them hit 90% backhands. People make it more complicated in their heads because they feel more proactive if they are "mixing it up" and might not feel mentally stimulated by doing the same return of serve over and over and over and over.

And books aren't necessarily focused on 4.0 and below tennis where backhands are so much weaker than forehands. And people don't pay for books that are 1 line long.

POUND THE BACKHAND!

Well give me one piece of info that may clarify this issue: in a rally where you are pounding every ball to the other guy's BH, what stroke are you using to do this?

PS- if you are beating those guys, they aren't better than you, you're better than them.

[SlapShot]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

Well give me one piece of info that may clarify this issue: in a rally where you are pounding every ball to the other guy's BH, what stroke are you using to do this?

PS- if you are beating those guys, they aren't better than you, you're better than them.

That's the rub here - if the person you're playing is clearly better than you, odds are you aren't going to be able to direct the ball to their backhand as efficiently as if you happen to be at a similar level.

[spot]

LuckyR- I am not talking about hitting wicked shots to the backhand. When I serve, 95% of the time I am just tossing up spin serves to the backhand. No aces, no pace they can't handle. Just sending EVERYTHING to the backhand and making them try to attack me off of that side. Pounding is about repetition. I have just come across very few players who can consistently attack balls off of the backhand side below the 4.5 level.

If my serve goes to the backhand, then the next ball tends to be weak enough that I can hit the next ball to their backhand as well. You keep the pressure on the backhand and you will keep getting weaker balls back that you can do something with. Thats the whole point. People get in trouble when they get away from this and try to attack the superior player's strength.

[PushyPushster]

Originally Posted by investorofmercy

I am playing Ultimate also at 3.5. Not sure what level you are but I am seeded 22nd and play the 109th seeded player.

Nope, I took a step up to 4.0- this year. I've noticed that more people at this level can make me pay for my short, paceless groundies, and that's been a struggle. Maybe I'll actually take a lesson and learn how to swing my racket properly this year ... nah, who am I kidding?

[fridrix]

I played a couple of clearly superior opponents my last season at 3.0 singles (I got bumped up). The only success I had was being extremely aggressive and catching them off guard a bit. I had to hit the best shots of my life to get any points at all.

Also, I had a nemesis who got bumped up to 4.0 after going a season at 3.5 singles w/o losing a set (we met in 3.5 tournaments)... I developed a game plan (à la Brian Gilbert) to really attack his weaker side, the forehand, and it seemed to work for a while but I still only ended up with a couple of games.

I think the Santoro tactic is great, but I don't have the finesse to make that stuff work consistently. In sum, I think you have to be confident and try to take control of the situation.

[SlapShot]

Originally Posted by spot

LuckyR- I am not talking about hitting wicked shots to the backhand. When I serve, 95% of the time I am just tossing up spin serves to the backhand. No aces, no pace they can't handle. Just sending EVERYTHING to the backhand and making them try to attack me off of that side. Pounding is about repetition. I have just come across very few players who can consistently attack balls off of the backhand side below the 4.5 level.

If my serve goes to the backhand, then the next ball tends to be weak enough that I can hit the next ball to their backhand as well. You keep the pressure on the backhand and you will keep getting weaker balls back that you can do something with. Thats the whole point. People get in trouble when they get away from this and try to attack the superior player's strength.

What level are you, if I might ask, that a sub-4.5 player is clearly a better player?

I don't mean for this to sound snide, as it might - I've just noticed that anything from 3.0-4.0 can be a crapshoot talent-wise.

[Vik]

[quote=smoothtennis;2258685]In pure playing ability very strong 4.0 to weak 4.5. I've been playing 4.5 tourney's so far this year (1-3 record), then will do this Open, and back to play the 4.0 guys for the rest of the year I guess, unless it just isn't as fun. Mayby I expect too much of these 5.0's. I am expecting unreal killer forehands, explosive backhads with huge topspin, crushing returns, and serves at 115 mph, including massive kick and twist serves. I could be building this up in my mind, but it sounds incredibly fun, LOL!
QUOTE]

You are expecting too much. They will be all around solid players, but probably won't have some huge jaw-dropping shot. They'll have you on the defensive. They'll put away short balls w/o much effort --- b/c they can hit these shots in their sleep. But their normal shot won't look much different from anyone else.

While playing up on occasion can be a learning experience, be careful that you are not conditioning yourself to losing. Everyone should learn to beat people of their level even if those players don't have 'pretty' shots. It's all part of the learning process.

Good luck this weekend. Split the court in half. Focus on cross court unless he shows a punishing forehand, in which case focus on the backhand side of the court. See ball, hit ball.

[Tennis Truth]

My experience has been that a strategy like "pound the backhand" can work well at 3.0 and 3.5, but is less effective against a 4.5. Here is why. If a 3.0 or 3.5 has a weak backhand, he may give you unforced errors and weak replies that you can hurt him with.

But, a 4.5 is much better overall, and his "weak" backhand is probably going to be more "neutral" than "weak", and while it might not really hurt you, he is probably not going to make many unforced errors or give you a lot of short balls. If you "pound the backhand" against a 4.5, you are not moving him much, so he can camp out on the backhand side. Not hitting on the run makes it easier for him to hit backhands, and he can run around his forehand. Plus, he does not run much, while you may be running a lot.

When playing against higher level players, you need to mainly play your game, the game you are good at. Still try to make some tactical modifications, but if you make a substantial change from the way you usually play, that means you are changing from a game you are comfortable with and are good at, to a game that is more unfamilar to you.

Lets face it, you will usually lose when you play someone much better than you. Play hard and try a few things. See how your game matches up, and then figure out what you need to do to better compete at that higher level.

[SlapShot]

Originally Posted by Vik

You are expecting too much. They will be all around solid players, but probably won't have some huge jaw-dropping shot. They'll have you on the defensive. They'll put away short balls w/o much effort --- b/c they can hit these shots in their sleep. But their normal shot won't look much different from anyone else.

While playing up on occasion can be a learning experience, be careful that you are not conditioning yourself to losing. Everyone should learn to beat people of their level even if those players don't have 'pretty' shots. It's all part of the learning process.

Good luck this weekend. Split the court in half. Focus on cross court unless he shows a punishing forehand, in which case focus on the backhand side of the court. See ball, hit ball.

My experience as well. Nothing jawdropping, just consistent with a solid level of power and placement. It's not like you're playing Fed - a 5.0 or 5.5 player is a solid player, and if you're a 4.0 or 4.5, you'll most likely be overmatched, but it's not quite like jumping to the pro level.

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by spot

LuckyR- I am not talking about hitting wicked shots to the backhand. When I serve, 95% of the time I am just tossing up spin serves to the backhand. No aces, no pace they can't handle. Just sending EVERYTHING to the backhand and making them try to attack me off of that side. Pounding is about repetition. I have just come across very few players who can consistently attack balls off of the backhand side below the 4.5 level.

If my serve goes to the backhand, then the next ball tends to be weak enough that I can hit the next ball to their backhand as well. You keep the pressure on the backhand and you will keep getting weaker balls back that you can do something with. Thats the whole point. People get in trouble when they get away from this and try to attack the superior player's strength.

You didn't answer my question, so I'll fill in the blanks. If you are both right handed and you are hitting ball after ball to their BH, they are either returning the balls DTL or CC. Let's assume your observation is correct and they are having trouble with their return. In that case, the correct shot for them is to hit their return CC (to your BH). So essentially you are in a BH to BH rally. How is it then, that the "better" person's BH loses out to your BH? On the other hand if you are repeatedly hitting to their BH and they are (for whatever reason) hitting DTL to your FH, then this "better" player doesn't sound too good...

[spot]

Slapshot- I picked up a racket for the first time about 2.5 years ago and now I am a 4.0 player. There are about 3 things I do at an above average level. I can serve to the backhand all day (first and second serves) and many 4.0 players can't (or choose not to) do that. I have a wicked topspin lob. And I have a nice inside out forehand that I can drive to people's backhands.

And absolutely there are guys who's first serve I have little chance of touching. Guys where if we were blasting forehand to forehand would likely wipe the court with me. Better athletes and stronger. But players vary so much based on what they do the best to what they do the worst so just serving to their backhand over and over and consistenly making them try to attack me off of that side is an easy recipe for success.

People are always skeptical when I tell them this. Seriously in your next match go out there and just resolve to make your opponent hurt you off of their backhand side. Don't overthink it- just keep pounding that backhand and good things happen.

[spot]

Lucky- virtually EVERY ball I have the option to I am going to take to the backhand. The inside out forehand is no question the shot I hit the most in singles for this reason. Some people want to hit their forehand crosscourt, I just want to put it deep to the backhand. Yeah- I am notorious for running around my backhand to hit an inside out forehand. But the point is still that you got a return that the other person wasn't attackign you with.

[spot]

And Tennis Truth- even for players at 4.5 with "solid" backhands, those players generally have weapon forehands. All I am looking for is balls that a superior player can't attack against. Once you get to 4.5 you do face more people who can consistently attack off of the backhand, but still those players tend to have forehands you want to avoid even more.

[SlapShot]

Fair enough, but if you're a 4.0, you should even be able to hang with a 4.5 without getting blown off of the court.

Above 4.5, guys are generally going to either:

a. run around their backhand and blast their forehand where they want it

or

b. be able to effectively use their backhand to force errors

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by spot

Lucky- EVERY ball I have the option to I am going to take to the backhand. The inside out forehand is no question the shot I hit the most in singles for this reason. Some people want to hit their forehand crosscourt, I just want to put it deep to the backhand.

I suspected the above was true. So why aren't they hitting inside out FHs off of shots to their BH side that are not "wicked shots to the backhand".

[spot]

Lucky- if I get a ball I can do something with and I hit a shot that my opponent is able to run around and attack with a forehand then it was simply a poor shot on my part. Go wider with the next shot. The point is just to hit enough of a ball that they have to attack off of their backhand side. No need to overhit- just deep and wide. If your goal is to make them hit a backhand and you can't get to it then you are probably facing someone you simply don't have a chance against.

[smoothtennis]

Originally Posted by Vik

You are expecting too much. They will be all around solid players, but probably won't have some huge jaw-dropping shot. They'll have you on the defensive. They'll put away short balls w/o much effort --- b/c they can hit these shots in their sleep. But their normal shot won't look much different from anyone else.

While playing up on occasion can be a learning experience, be careful that you are not conditioning yourself to losing. Everyone should learn to beat people of their level even if those players don't have 'pretty' shots. It's all part of the learning process. I think three tournaments in a row will have accomplished that.

Good luck this weekend. Split the court in half. Focus on cross court unless he shows a punishing forehand, in which case focus on the backhand side of the court. See ball, hit ball.

Thanks for the post Vik. Always great to hear your input.

As far as playing up, I promised myself to do it to start the year off, then go back down, and play where I know I can compete against same or slightly less skill level, where closing out tough matches can be a challenge mentally. I want to get a good look at the next level, the pace, spin, footwork, and tactics - and hopefully use that to give me focus points for further improvement the rest of the year.

I've been working recently with the Wardlaw directionals - so crosscourt is high on the list as you suggested. If the guy is killing me there, I'll try to get more to the backhand as you suggest. And although is doubtful - I do have the ability to Santoro-ize my game if all seems lost, LOL. It's just hard to swallow pulling out a Santoro approach in front of other people watching.

Thanks for your well wishes - I'll let you guys know how it goes.