question for those on lockout machines - what is your pulling technique?

[Posture Guy]

I've got a Neos 1000, just getting back to stringing after an extended absence. I've read many of the threads here about constant pull vs lockout with great interest. my goal isn't to replicate a constant pull job on a lockout machine, but rather to achieve a couple specific objectives:

1. A consistent job

2. Minimize post stringing tension loss

there was a post on one of the threads where a guy hooked a sophisticated monitor up to the racquet and was able to measure tension loss over time very precisely. I found that very, very interesting.

here's my thinking. I'm assuming that if I initiate the pull and then pull evenly and it takes 2 seconds from start of pull to lockout, that this will not tension the string the same as if I take 5 seconds for that interval.

I experimented with something yesterday, I pulled relatively slowly (what would create about a 5 second interval) and then when I got to what felt like about 80% of the way towards lockout I paused and held the tension for about a 2 second count, then completed the pull.

I have no instrumentation that would allow me to measure post stringing tension or tension loss so I'll just have to go by feel when I hit these racquets. Just curious what others do with their lockouts and if there's a 'best practice' here.

[Irvin]

http://www.youtube.com/user/Mr10sStr.../4/3aYI5DXQxSA

Irvin

[Posture Guy]

Irvin....I've watched that video. Most of the video isn't about the technique of how to pull, but making the case for why lockout is different than constant pull and how a single lockout pull will not stretch the string as effectively as a double pull. Then you basically advocate simply double pulling on a lockout machine.

What I'm asking for here is what people are actually doing. Are people double pulling? Pulling to a certain count?

Also, one reason I said my goal was not to replicate a constant pull result is that I think one can create the same "problem" on a constant pull if you clamp too shortly after pulling. I've seen stringers, including some of your videos, where the stringer initiates the electronic pull and clamps within about 2-3 seconds. I would argue that if I'm pulling a lockout more slowly or double pulling and I'm taking 5-8 seconds to pull before locking out that I'm going to get less tension loss doing that on a lockout than someone clamping 2-3 seconds after initiating pull on a constant pull machine.

[Irvin]

I agree. But on a Constant pull you have approximately the same tension for the duration of the pull. If you pull with the lockout for 5 to 8 seconds without locking out you will have less than the reference tension and less stretch. I would pull with the lockout until it locks out then pull again.

Irvin

[Posture Guy]

Irvin...thanks. And when you suggest 'pulling again', like in your video, you don't initiate the entire pull again, you just unlock, put a very modest amount of 'slack' back on the string and then re-lockout. Let me know if I'm seeing that wrong.

curious if any other lockout users are using this technique or what else they might be doing.

[rjw]

Originally Posted by Posture Guy

Irvin...thanks. And when you suggest 'pulling again', like in your video, you don't initiate the entire pull again, you just unlock, put a very modest amount of 'slack' back on the string and then re-lockout. Let me know if I'm seeing that wrong.

curious if any other lockout users are using this technique or what else they might be doing.

I double pulled 1 string job and didn't like the results. I thought that the racquet played like a board...similar to when it was strung on a Bab sensor.

Some obviously like the feel, I didn't.

I strung a poly at 57 without double oulling and it felt REALLY stiff. Couldn't imagine how it would have felt either double pulling or if strung on a cp

jmo (I'm in the minority here)

[Posture Guy]

rjw......wouldn't the feel you refer to simply be a function of higher resulting tension in the string bed? I'd interpret what you're saying as "I like the way the racquet feels when it's strung at 55 pounds on a lockout with single pulls, and it feels like a board to me if I end up with a tension that is 3-5 pounds higher than that."

I doubt the double pull changes any fundamental characteristic of the string other than the resulting tension at which it's held. So my guess is if you did the same method but dropped the stated tension on the machine by roughly 5% you'd end up with a comparable feeling string job.

[Irvin]

Originally Posted by Posture Guy

...I doubt the double pull changes any fundamental characteristic of the string other than the resulting tension at which it's held...

Think about that. If you pull tension at 55 lbs two times how can it change?

EDIT: I am assuming elasticity or stretch is a string characteristic. The more you stretch it the less elastic it becomes, and if it does not stretch over time under pressure the tension would never drop.

Irvin

[rjw]

Originally Posted by Posture Guy

rjw......wouldn't the feel you refer to simply be a function of higher resulting tension in the string bed? I'd interpret what you're saying as "I like the way the racquet feels when it's strung at 55 pounds on a lockout with single pulls, and it feels like a board to me if I end up with a tension that is 3-5 pounds higher than that."

I doubt the double pull changes any fundamental characteristic of the string other than the resulting tension at which it's held. So my guess is if you did the same method but dropped the stated tension on the machine by roughly 5% you'd end up with a comparable feeling string job.

Could be....I've been corrected here before for this statement, and by some that obviously have a LOT more experience than I do.

I recall a while back that some with reasonable experience claimed that the difference between LO and CP machines was NOT simply a matter of 5 to 10% difference in tension, but they haven't chimed in since.

All I can say is do your own testing and decide for yourself. I double pulled ogsm and didn't like the feel of the stringbed.

So is it the properties of ogsm or a mental thing?

[Posture Guy]

rjw....so I guess the relevant question is does a constant or double pull change anything about the stringbed other than yielding a higher resulting tension relative to that which would be obtained by doing single pulls with a lockout.

I'm nowhere near qualified to answer that question.

[rjw]

Again...perhaps ogsm is a bad example to test with, but...

I strung at 56/52 single pull, then 56/52 with double pull.

Both racquets sat for a day and dt dropped. the double pull was 1 point higher.

I played with both, a bit moreso with the double pull setup.

A few days later, dt was the same, but I still didn't like the way it felt as compared to the single pull stringjob.

[fortun8son]

I was a bartender for many years and I use the same count as a slow-pour shot. 1...2...3...lock!
You can refine this timing with a bottle of booze and a shot glass. Have fun!

[neverstopplaying]

Originally Posted by Posture Guy

I experimented with something yesterday, I pulled relatively slowly (what would create about a 5 second interval) and then when I got to what felt like about 80% of the way towards lockout I paused and held the tension for about a 2 second count, then completed the pull.

I had also thought about double-pulling, but found this a PITA for routine stringing, so I do something close to what you listed above.

I pull quite slowly and as consistently as possible. I pull to a point just before the machine locks out. I am able to make a visual reference of this point on the machine. Then I hold for 3 secs and complete the lockout. If I go too far and it locks out, then I double pull.

Works for me and my 10-12 stringing clients.

[rjw]

I take advantage of a slow pull, by using my other hand to push the crosses near to the previously tensioned cross. I don't lockout until this is the case, so it's all good...I think? Since my second stringjob, this has been my method, and while I check that all my strings are straight after I'm done, I've never had to straighten any...

exception is BM poly at 30 lbs, where the first cross has a little frown and won't go away....lol

[levy1]

Originally Posted by Posture Guy

Irvin....I've watched that video. Most of the video isn't about the technique of how to pull, but making the case for why lockout is different than constant pull and how a single lockout pull will not stretch the string as effectively as a double pull. Then you basically advocate simply double pulling on a lockout machine.

What I'm asking for here is what people are actually doing. Are people double pulling? Pulling to a certain count?

Also, one reason I said my goal was not to replicate a constant pull result is that I think one can create the same "problem" on a constant pull if you clamp too shortly after pulling. I've seen stringers, including some of your videos, where the stringer initiates the electronic pull and clamps within about 2-3 seconds. I would argue that if I'm pulling a lockout more slowly or double pulling and I'm taking 5-8 seconds to pull before locking out that I'm going to get less tension loss doing that on a lockout than someone clamping 2-3 seconds after initiating pull on a constant pull machine.

I pull twice now after viewing the video a few weeks ago. I am also using natty gut often.

[Posture Guy]

yeah, I think double pulling will actually be simpler than the method I used, of pulling slowly and kind of holding at about the 80% mark. Irvin's point is well taken that while I'm getting additional stretch on the string, it's not at the ultimate reference tension. Would probably be quicker to take about 3 seconds to do the first pull, then release tension and take 1-2 seconds to do the second pull.

[Irvin]

Originally Posted by Posture Guy

yeah, I think double pulling will actually be simpler than the method I used, of pulling slowly and kind of holding at about the 80% mark. Irvin's point is well taken that while I'm getting additional stretch on the string, it's not at the ultimate reference tension. Would probably be quicker to take about 3 seconds to do the first pull, then release tension and take 1-2 seconds to do the second pull.

Good luck on that. You may be able to do the mains that quick but when you start on the cross it will take a tad longer. 5 seconds total to pull tension, release your clamp, clamp the other end of string, release tension, pull tension again and lock the base is really fast. Just work on a comfortable rythm and don't get too tied up with time.

And remember one important point. This method is not a improved method for stringing with a lockout stringer it is a method to match the results you may get if you were stringing with a constant pull machine. I don't like increase the tension 5% or 10% to match the results because that is just a number someone pulled out of the blue. If you have been stringing with a lockout and like the results you get don't change. If someone comes to you and says your stringing feels looser than what they used to get at wherever one reason could be the difference in types of stringers.

Irvin

[Posture Guy]

Irvin......so you'd recommend pulling tension, clamping as if you were done and ready to move on to the next main or cross, then pulling tension again with the clamp still in that position?

my thought was that would not fully tension the entire string. I was thinking I'd pull until lockout, then release tension just slightly, then pull to lockout again, THEN move the clamp into position. I'm not going for speed records, I'm happy to take my time. But that's why I thought a nice "1-2-3" count on the first pull, then release the lockout just slightly, then repull to lockout and clamp made sense.

thoughts?

[Irvin]

That would depend on if you have single or double action clamps. With single action you method would be best with double action I like my method better. I would not clamp the string two times no matter what.

Irvin

[Posture Guy]

I have a Prince Neos.

Just don't see the value in pulling, clamping, then pulling again. I'm tensioning a very small part of the string. Seems to me I should pull to lockout, release (partially), pull to lockout again, then clamp.