Rehash/Update on foreign players

[Gus]

Originally Posted by andfor

That said getting last is not a good position for them to defend (if they had to) not having U.S. players on the team. Then again how many girls that could have actually played for KSU let alone win matches in the Big 12 do we know who did not get to go to school there and play tennis?

Fact is that we just can't know the answer to that simply by looking at rosters. I think the point of my original post was that results were not guaranteed by having a high percentage of foreign players. Since competitive sports are ultimately results oriented, I imagine that at some point a degree of equilibrium will be reached at most schools (if we're not already there for the most part). Schools that have a high % of foreign players and get no results will have little choice but to re-examine what they're doing, while schools that achieve good results with foreign players will ultimately begin to attract top Americans. In the near future gone will be the teams of 100% of either.

Having said this, I think it's OK hold public universities to a higher accountability and that can only speed up this process. The good people of Kansas allowed KSU to have a 100% foreign team that accomplished nothing. It's ok for the good people of Kansas to ask questions and require answers. That will accelerate some change for the better.

[andfor]

Originally Posted by Gus

Fact is that we just can't know the answer to that simply by looking at rosters. I think the point of my original post was that results were not guaranteed by having a high percentage of foreign players. Since competitive sports are ultimately results oriented, I imagine that at some point a degree of equilibrium will be reached at most schools (if we're not already there for the most part). Schools that have a high % of foreign players and get no results will have little choice but to re-examine what they're doing, while schools that achieve good results with foreign players will ultimately begin to attract top Americans. In the near future gone will be the teams of 100% of either.

Having said this, I think it's OK hold public universities to a higher accountability and that can only speed up this process. The good people of Kansas allowed KSU to have a 100% foreign team that accomplished nothing. It's ok for the good people of Kansas to ask questions and require answers. That will accelerate some change for the better.

As I said in my entire post that one bad season for KSU is not indicative of their overall success. On a one year examination verses the last 10 last year is an aberration. Having a successful program full foreigners does not guarantee Americans will follow. Just ask the coach.

BTW the Big 12 is very, very competitive. Schools like Texas and Texas A&M for example have a much larger name recognition and attraction to American tennis players across the U.S. than a Kansas State. That's a fact. American tennis kids (many of the better ones) historically want to play tennis at Big Time U. or not at all. How many Big 12 quality players are their in the State of Kansas anyway? Certainly not enough for a full competitive roster at KSU and Kansas. Then throw in Wichita State and schools coming into the state to recruit and what do you have left?

[Pusher]

Originally Posted by Serpententacle

Maybe "our" own kids should train as hard as the foreign kids and "our kids" will get the scholarships.

Blame the victim?

[andfor]

Originally Posted by Pusher

Blame the victim?

Other than grades and language competence (when applicable) what restrictions are put on Americans going to University outside the U.S.?

[AndrewD]

Originally Posted by ClarkC

Can you document this ridiculous assertion? I have re-read every post in this thread and do not find that the first thing everyone did was attack the foreign players themselves. Your assertion says a lot about you, your biases, and your bigotry.

Firstly, you're going to have to make a greater effort to read clearly. I shouldn't have to explain this but, when someone writes that "people's first response is to....", they are talking in general. If a person wrote that " the first response of people in this thread is to...." (the answer would be two, not none, as you claim) then they'd be dealing with a specific group - but that, obviously, wasn't the case.

Even if I hadn't written clearly, it should have been perfectly obvious to anyone exactly what I was referring to. That being the case (and assuming you don't have an axe to grind - do you?), after you had you first thought, 'I can't see any posts here that are attacking foreign players' you should have had the, logical, second one, 'he must be talking about something else, somewhere else, someone else'. Trouble is, you stopped after the first thought and decided to become unpleasant. I don't know why. All I do know is that it's not my fault you didn't want to read what I wrote as it was written and in the spirit in which it was written. That's your fault and you should apologise for it.

Now, that out of the road, why don't you have a look through all of the past threads devoted to this issue as well as the articles appearing in print and on-line. When you've done that, come back here and tell all of us that the first response of the majority(the people in the word "people's") is to blame the international players and not the system.

Then you can post an apology.

Strange though, that you would pick at the one part, instead of addressing the significant question.

[Gus]

Originally Posted by andfor

As I said in my entire post that one bad season for KSU is not indicative of their overall success. On a one year examination verses the last 10 last year is an aberration. Having a successful program full foreigners does not guarantee Americans will follow. Just ask the coach.

BTW the Big 12 is very, very competitive. Schools like Texas and Texas A&M for example have a much larger name recognition and attraction to American tennis players across the U.S. than a Kansas State. That's a fact. American tennis kids (many of the better ones) historically want to play tennis at Big Time U. or not at all. How many Big 12 quality players are their in the State of Kansas anyway? Certainly not enough for a full competitive roster at KSU and Kansas. Then throw in Wichita State and schools coming into the state to recruit and what do you have left?

I didn't want to pick on one program in particular, the fact is that most schools on the women's side have a healthy balance between foreign and domestic players. I don't have a beef against foreign players, but the few programs that are lopsided one way or another in most cases probably do so by choice. As you said in an earlier post AD's and alumni expect their coaches to win. If an all american side fails to win, the question will be "why don't we have any foreign players to help us?," the logical flip side is when an all foreign side competes and fails then the fixed gaze of public scrutiny is also a reasonable consequence.

But since you called me out on KSU, a program I care nothing about, I spent a half hour on their website just to protect my online ego (what a waste). 1. KSU has been successful in both football and basketball on the national level. That qualifies it as a "Big Time U". 2. Last year was not an abberation. The coach has been there 22 years and has a 207-259 record, about a 44% win rate. Over the last five years they have had one winning season, 11-10 in 2006, and accumulated a 35-62 record (36%). They have qualified for the NCAA's three times in their entire history (64 of the just about 100 teams get in). Their best year was in 2003 when they advanced to the round of 16. 3. I don't know how many girls in Kansas can compete at the Big 12 level, but in 2003, their most successful year ever, their roster listed 2 of the 7 girls as being from.....KANSAS. Time to re-evaluate things in Manhatten (the one in KS).

[andfor]

Originally Posted by Gus

I didn't want to pick on one program in particular, the fact is that most schools on the women's side have a healthy balance between foreign and domestic players. I don't have a beef against foreign players, but the few programs that are lopsided one way or another in most cases probably do so by choice. As you said in an earlier post AD's and alumni expect their coaches to win. If an all american side fails to win, the question will be "why don't we have any foreign players to help us?," the logical flip side is when an all foreign side competes and fails then the fixed gaze of public scrutiny is also a reasonable consequence.

But since you called me out on KSU, a program I care nothing about, I spent a half hour on their website just to protect my online ego (what a waste). 1. KSU has been successful in both football and basketball on the national level. That qualifies it as a "Big Time U". 2. Last year was not an abberation. The coach has been there 22 years and has a 207-259 record, about a 44% win rate. Over the last five years they have had one winning season, 11-10 in 2006, and accumulated a 35-62 record (36%). They have qualified for the NCAA's three times in their entire history (64 of the just about 100 teams get in). Their best year was in 2003 when they advanced to the round of 16. 3. I don't know how many girls in Kansas can compete at the Big 12 level, but in 2003, their most successful year ever, their roster listed 2 of the 7 girls as being from.....KANSAS. Time to re-evaluate things in Manhatten (the one in KS).

Your assessment of the success of the KSU womens tennis program is a little narrow.

1. What qualifies them for Bigtime U. is your opinion. I respect it but disagree. Texas, Vandy, A&M, Florida, Flordia State, Stanford, Cal, Harvard, Alabama, Notre Dame, UT Knoxville, UNC, Duke and I could list about 30 others are typically where kids with tennis playing backgrounds want to go to college whether they play tennis or not. Not Kansas State. That's my opinion. You have yours I have mine, we can disagree respectfully. 2. KSU womens tennis has been in the NCAA top 75 every year going back to 2000. That's 8 years and as far back as I could find on the rankings. Sorry to break it to you but W-L's alone at the highest level are not indicative of success. Scheduling teams that are also consistently in the Top 75 year in and year out has a lot to do with being ranked or not. Along the way in order to maintain a ranking wins over ranked teams are crucial, and KSU beats other top ranked teams every year. 3. KSU womens tennis have qualified 3 times in the history of their program under the same coach, the one you want to have reevaluated. Not bad by friends of the program who knew their losing ways before he got there. 4. Your assessment of their homegrown talent is a little misleading. Both parents of the local players are originally from outside the U.S. One the local players was actually born in Moscow Russia the others parents both served as professors at K-State.

[ClarkC]

Originally Posted by AndrewD

Firstly, you're going to have to make a greater effort to read clearly. I shouldn't have to explain this but, when someone writes that "people's first response is to....", they are talking in general. If a person wrote that " the first response of people in this thread is to...." (the answer would be two, not none, as you claim) then they'd be dealing with a specific group - but that, obviously, wasn't the case.

Even if I hadn't written clearly, it should have been perfectly obvious to anyone exactly what I was referring to. That being the case (and assuming you don't have an axe to grind - do you?), after you had you first thought, 'I can't see any posts here that are attacking foreign players' you should have had the, logical, second one, 'he must be talking about something else, somewhere else, someone else'. Trouble is, you stopped after the first thought and decided to become unpleasant. I don't know why. All I do know is that it's not my fault you didn't want to read what I wrote as it was written and in the spirit in which it was written. That's your fault and you should apologise for it.

Now, that out of the road, why don't you have a look through all of the past threads devoted to this issue as well as the articles appearing in print and on-line. When you've done that, come back here and tell all of us that the first response of the majority(the people in the word "people's") is to blame the international players and not the system.

Then you can post an apology.

Strange though, that you would pick at the one part, instead of addressing the significant question.

Blah, blah, blah.

I am supposed to believe that this thread is that different from all other discussions?

Why don't you post links to the other threads where the MAJORITY of first responses was to attack the foreign players? Because they don't exist?

[Tharnid]

It is what is...I know when I was looking at schools D-I-II-III and NAIA it was interesting to see what the coaches would say. I will tell you most of them were honest about it...they needed to stay competitive. I talked to one coach at MVC school and he told me "I won't be able to offer you a scholarship, but you can walk on. I have brought in some foreign players to stay competitive within our league". This team went on to win the MVC and has remaines competitive in their conference. The coaches are expected to win and remain competitive within their conferences. I can tell you that we (an NAIA school) beat a local Div II school fourteen years ago...it wouldn't happen today as they are Div I and have brought in players that make them competitive in a low level conference. The school who always won our conference tournament had five/six foreign players including a 35 yr old from Germany. No one could touch them.

There are scholarships out there people...you just have to find them and as coaches want to remain competitive you will see more players from other countries. Who do you blame? The coaches...they are just doing their jobs.
You might not get that scholy at UVA/USC/Insert one of the major D-I programs, but you can find a place to call home.