Roger Federer racket (85 & 90sq) circa 2002-03

[BreakPoint]

Originally Posted by AlpineCadet

Well the funny thing is that the k90 isn't double braided in the throat.

The K90 is not double braided anywhere just like the PS 6.0 85 Federer used before the K90. The retail PS Tour 90 and nCode 90 were however both double braided because they both contain HyperCarbon and they only use double braiding to incorporate the HyperCarbon (one braid of graphite with one braid of HyperCarbon). Neither the PS 6.0 85 nor the K90 contain HyperCarbon so they don't need double braiding. I feel like I've explained this over and over for the past couple of years already.

Anyway, I'm not sure why you find the K90 not being double braided "funny" since the PS 6.0 85 that Federer used just prior to the K90 also wasn't double braided so that's why they feel much closer to each other than the nCode 90 did.

[AlpineCadet]

Originally Posted by BreakPoint

The K90 is not double braided anywhere just like the PS 6.0 85 Federer used before the K90. The retail PS Tour 90 and nCode 90 were however both double braided because they both contain HyperCarbon and they only use double braiding to incorporate the HyperCarbon (one braid of graphite with one braid of HyperCarbon). Neither the PS 6.0 85 nor the K90 contain HyperCarbon so they don't need double braiding. I feel like I've explained this over and over for the past couple of years already.

Anyway, I'm not sure why you find the K90 not being double braided "funny" since the PS 6.0 85 that Federer used just prior to the K90 also wasn't double braided so that's why they feel much closer to each other than the nCode 90 did.

Are we in the same thread? The thread title reads "Roger Federer racket (85 & 90sq) circa 2002-03" so they should be the real deal. Check out the throat areas in the pictures again.

Originally Posted by Equijet

Shot with Canon EOS 5D at 2008-09-19

Shot with Canon EOS 5D at 2008-09-19

Originally Posted by Equijet

[IMG]

[BreakPoint]

Originally Posted by Equijet

Yep, Wilson doesn't liar to the public this time, K-factor six one tour 90 is real Roger Federer's spec racket (but the butt cap) and I think this spec will be lasted for future Roger's series models until he retire. Yet, everyone are able to get a retail K-factor tour 90 and string with Wilson Champion's Choice hybrid 16 to experience what Roger is actually playing with. But I believe that 80% K90 owners (I can't say players) would string their racket (probably natural gut with Luxlion combo) only one time when the brand new racket was bought and play with it once then retire it forever and tell other people else that they use Federer's racket. 15% owners really uses it on the court but struggling with their opponents with that racket too! Probably they will have some forgiving rackets along with them as substitution. 4.9999.....% players really capable to fully utilize this racket for the edge of the games. Only 1 out of 6.942 billion person is really use it as a lethal weapon who is mighty Roger only!

Yes, I agree! Good one!

[Equijet]

Originally Posted by AlpineCadet

Well the funny thing is that the k90 isn't double braided in the throat.

No, the K90 is also double braided structure of high modulus graphite (wilson claimed that is "Kraphite") with Kevlar as same structure of Pro Staff 85. Wilson doesn't advertise this feature on K90 but doesn't mean it isn't double braided structure.
If you dare to erase the coating of your K90 and cut it in half, then you can notice that it is double braided structure, it's cost $199.00 to find the truth.

[BreakPoint]

Originally Posted by AlpineCadet

Are we in the same thread? The thread title reads "Roger Federer racket (85 & 90sq) circa 2002-03" so they should be the real deal. Check out the throat areas in the pictures again.

Huh? You do realize that ALL of those 85 & 90 racquets in those pics are paintjobs, don't you? The only one that is not is the 95, which is a retail HPS 6.0 95 Tour for comparison purposes.

The 85 pictured are PS 6.0 85's with the HPS 6.0 95 Tour paintjob and the 90 pictured are K90's with the same HPS 6.0 95 Tour paintjob. You do realize that the purpose of paintjobs it to make people think it's a racquet that it's not, don't you? So just because it has a "HyperCarbon" decal on it does not mean that the racquet contains HyperCarbon. Why? Because it's a paintjob!

Courier's PS 6.0 85 paintjobs used to look like nCode 90's and they had the nCode 95 spec stickers on them.

[BreakPoint]

Originally Posted by Equijet

No, the K90 is also double braided structure of high modulus graphite (wilson claimed that is "Kraphite") with Kevlar as same structure of Pro Staff 85. Wilson doesn't advertise this feature on K90 but doesn't mean it isn't double braided structure.
If you dare to erase the coating of your K90 and cut it in half, then you can notice that it is double braided structure, it's cost $199.00 to find the truth.

Are you sure about that? Wilson confirmed to me directly that the K90 is NOT double braided. Also, both the PS Tour 90 and the nCode have the "Double Braided" logo decals on them but the K90 does not. Wilson uses double braiding to incorporate HyperCarbon into the layup and I do not believe the K90 contains HyperCarbon.

[AlpineCadet]

Originally Posted by Equijet

No, the K90 is also double braided structure of high modulus graphite (wilson claimed that is "Kraphite") with Kevlar as same structure of Pro Staff 85. Wilson doesn't advertise this feature on K90 but doesn't mean it isn't double braided structure.
If you dare to erase the coating of your K90 and cut it in half, then you can notice that it is double braided structure, it's cost $199.00 to find the truth.

I've asked TW before, and they aren't sure themselves. Correct me if I am wrong, but no one on TTW has posted about their k90 being double braided in the throat, so at the moment, it's debatable.

Originally Posted by TW Staff

Sorry for missing your question. Here is the composition of the racquet:
80% Karophite Black / 20% Kevlar. Wilson does not state if there is a braided construction in this racquet. However, the Karophite Black is claimed to be a much stronger material than previous materials. If this is the case, stiffness could be maintained or improved without braiding.

Chris, TW.

Originally Posted by vsbabolat

I was curious also so I called Wilson and asked. I was told that the new Ksix-one Tour 90 is NOT double braided or braided graphite and Kevlar by a Wilson representative.

[AlpineCadet]

Originally Posted by BreakPoint

Huh? You do realize that ALL of those 85 & 90 racquets in those pics are paintjobs, don't you? The only one that is not is the 95, which is a retail HPS 6.0 95 Tour for comparison purposes.

The 85 pictured are PS 6.0 85's with the HPS 6.0 95 Tour paintjob and the 90 pictured are K90's with the same HPS 6.0 95 Tour paintjob. You do realize that the purpose of paintjobs it to make people think it's a racquet that it's not, don't you? So just because it has a "HyperCarbon" decal on it does not mean that the racquet contains HyperCarbon. Why? Because it's a paintjob!

Courier's PS 6.0 85 paintjobs used to look like nCode 90's and they had the nCode 95 spec stickers on them.

The OP is saying that the PJ's he has are that of RF's collection, and that they are identical to the retail k90 but with lead customizations. The frames in his pictures also show that they are double braided. Is the k90 double braided?

[BreakPoint]

Originally Posted by AlpineCadet

The OP is saying that the PJ's he has are that of RF's collection, and that they are identical to the retail k90 but with lead customizations. The frames in his pictures also show that they are double braided. Is the k90 double braided?

Where in the pics do they show that the frames are double braided? Do you know what double braiding means? That cross-hatch pattern DOES NOT show double braiding. That shows single braiding. That's what braiding is - it's the cross weaving of the graphite layers, just like braiding a girl's long hair. What you are seeing is the single braiding. You cannot SEE double braiding from the outside of a frame because the second braided layer in beneath the outer braided layer. In a double braided frame, there are TWO layers of crisscross braiding - a layer of braided graphite and HyperCarbon on top and a layer of braided graphite and Kevlar beneath it which you cannot see unless you break open the frame to see all the layers underneath the outer layer. So it's called "Double Braided" because it has TWO LAYERS of (single) braiding, not because it's braided twice or anything. In any case, I'm not even sure if the cross-hatch graphite pattern that you see through the paintjob of a HPS 6.0 or HPS 6.1 is really the outer braided graphite layer or just painted to look that way.

[Equijet]

Originally Posted by BreakPoint

Are you sure about that? Wilson confirmed to me directly that the K90 is NOT double braided. Also, both the PS Tour 90 and the nCode have the "Double Braided" logo decals on them but the K90 does not. Wilson uses double braiding to incorporate HyperCarbon into the layup and I do not believe the K90 contains HyperCarbon.

I'm 100% sure what I said. Wilson uses double braiding to incorporate HyperCarbon fibre only at the racket throat area to reinforce the inertia strengh, not entire frame. You are right that those paint job rackets do not contain any fancy materials what are HyperCarbon, N-code or Karophite Black, etc.... they are just made of graphite with Kevlar braided, the same recipe as Pro Staff 85. I can bet with you if you ruined your K90 and find it I'm wrong, then I'm willing to compensate 10 or more to you. Cheers!

[ericsson]

Originally Posted by Equijet

I'm 100% sure what I said. Wilson uses double braiding to incorporate HyperCarbon fibre only at the racket throat area to reinforce the inertia strengh, not entire frame. You are right that those paint job rackets do not contain any fancy materials what are HyperCarbon, N-code or Karophite Black, etc.... they are just made of graphite with Kevlar braided, the same recipe as Pro Staff 85. I can bet with you if you ruined your K90 and find it I'm wrong, then I'm willing to compensate 10 or more to you. Cheers!

Hmm that's quite a statement
Equijet, are you located in Europe?
Thanks for the nice pics, you really shed some light in here...

[AlpineCadet]

Originally Posted by BreakPoint

Where in the pics do they show that the frames are double braided? Do you know what double braiding means? That cross-hatch pattern DOES NOT show double braiding. That shows single braiding. That's what braiding is - it's the cross weaving of the graphite layers, just like braiding a girl's long hair. What you are seeing is the single braiding. You cannot SEE double braiding from the outside of a frame because the second braided layer in beneath the outer braided layer. In a double braided frame, there are TWO layers of crisscross braiding - a layer of braided graphite and HyperCarbon on top and a layer of braided graphite and Kevlar beneath it which you cannot see unless you break open the frame to see all the layers underneath the outer layer. So it's called "Double Braided" because it has TWO LAYERS of (single) braiding, not because it's braided twice or anything. In any case, I'm not even sure if the cross-hatch graphite pattern that you see through the paintjob of a HPS 6.0 or HPS 6.1 is really the outer braided graphite layer or just painted to look that way.

PST90 is double braided. Here are some pictures that I just took of the DB:



Take a look at the OP's pictures:

Originally Posted by Equijet

So then the question should be: if the k90 isn't double braided, then is it single braided?

[BreakPoint]

Originally Posted by AlpineCadet

PST90 is double braided. Here are some pictures that I just took of the DB:



Take a look at the OP's pictures:


So then the question should be: if the k90 isn't double braided, then is it single braided?

What you are seeing there is the top braided layer of graphite and HyperCarbon. The second braided layer of graphite and Kevlar is underneath the top layer so you can't see it from the outside. Notice that even the "Double Braided" logo decal inside the throat shows the two layers. Each layer is single braided, but since there are TWO single braided layers, Wilson calls it "double braided".

The PS 6.0 has "braided graphite/Kevlar" but Wilson never specified how many braided layers they use in that frame. But if what Equijet claims is true, that the K90 is double braided and uses the same structure as the PS 6.0, then they must both have two single braided layers of graphite/Kevlar, since we all agree that the K90 does not contain HyperCarbon.

[Equijet]

Originally Posted by AlpineCadet

I've asked TW before, and they aren't sure themselves. Correct me if I am wrong, but no one on TTW has posted about their k90 being double braided in the throat, so at the moment, it's debatable.

I'm only telling the truth based on what I've seen and actually know.
Not answered by someone else or any customer services. Basically the customer service (mostly correspondents are ladies),
usually they have no idea what you are questioning about (probably they are also wanted to handle the questions from the fans of Kobe on Basketball issues) and then they will get the answers from the catalogues or the manuals or descriptions on the products. If the racket doesn't state "double braided construction", then you will be model answered that it is not double braided structure. They won't pass your questions to the appropriated engineers to dig deep for the truth.
Basically, braided structure doesn't improve the stiffness or power but good contribution for the shock absorption of ball impact and better inertia condition, it's good feature for control oriented application. As you can notice that the power rackets are very common in unidirectional graphite lay-up structure because the braided structure is too heavy for those super light weight rackets. Modern graphite is very strong sufficiently to generate tons of power, Karophite Black is just a gimmick for marketing purpose.

[BreakPoint]

Originally Posted by Equijet

I'm only telling the truth based on what I've seen and actually know.
Not answered by someone else or any customer services. Basically the customer service (mostly correspondents are ladies),
usually they have no idea what you are questioning about (probably they are also wanted to handle the questions from the fans of Kobe on Basketball issues) and then they will get the answers from the catalogues or the manuals or descriptions on the products. If the racket doesn't state "double braided construction", then you will be model answered that it is not double braided structure. They won't pass your questions to the appropriated engineers to dig deep for the truth.

However, when I contacted Wilson a year ago and asked if the K90 was double braided, they first said they didn't know and would have to ask their engineers. Several days later, they came back with the answer and said that their engineers informed them that the K90 is NOT double braided.

So how do you actually know that the K90 is definitely double braided? Have you cut one open yourself?

[Equijet]

Originally Posted by BreakPoint

However, when I contacted Wilson a year ago and asked if the K90 was double braided, they first said they didn't know and would have to ask their engineers. Several days later, they came back with the answer and said that their engineers informed them that the K90 is NOT double braided.

So how do you actually know that the K90 is definitely double braided? Have you cut one open yourself?

I don't need to cut it to get the answer. As I told that I just reveal what I've seen or acually know, that is the answer. If you don't believe, just ignore what I told. Just cut one piece and proof what I lair to you to get 10 more pieces back, worth to do so, isn't it? Cheers.

[BreakPoint]

Originally Posted by Equijet

I don't need to cut it to get the answer. As I told that I just reveal what I've seen or acually know, that is the answer. If you don't believe, just ignore what I told. Just cut one piece and proof what I lair to you to get 10 more pieces back, worth to do so, isn't it? Cheers.

OK, thanks. But could you be a bit more specific or elaborate a bit more on HOW you know and/or what exactly you've seen? Were you involved with the development of the K90 along with Roger? Have you been in the factory and seen them make the K90? Thanks.

[Equijet]

Originally Posted by BreakPoint

OK, thanks. But could you be a bit more specific or elaborate a bit more on HOW you know and/or what exactly you've seen? Were you involved with the development of the K90 along with Roger? Have you been in the factory and seen them make the K90? Thanks.

Maybe I still have a naked K90 (without coating) in my office and able to show to you what is underneath of the painting.
Since I have been traveling overseas, I might show pictures to you guys when I get back home. I wish that it would not be throw away.

[Keifers]

I just stumbled on this thread and have found it a fascinating read. Thanks to all -- especially Equijet and BreakPoint.

I'm particularly interested to know how close the composition, construction and feel of the K90 (Roger's racquet, which is the retail K90, we now know) are to the composition, construction and feel of the original 6.0 85 and 6.0 95.

If I've understood what has been written so far, Equijet is saying that the K90 is double braided construction. Does that somehow mean that the 6.0s were also double braided? Or not?

So, the 6.0s were: 80% graphite/20% Kevlar and (single- or double- ?) braided.

And the K90 is: 80% Karographite*/20% Kevlar and double braided. (* whatever that is...)

Please confirm. Thanks in advance!

[galain]

Originally Posted by Equijet

Hey, are you fan of Guy Forget? Yes, I have some of his personal frames but won't sell them away, sorry! Actually LT-301 was the copy of Pro Staff 85 but slightly soft because it is composited with graphite and glass fibre, same weight and balance point but the shape of the loop. Be careful when you are swinging backhand (right hander) with Lacoste rackets, the accelero damper would cut your right leg badly. I did it once.....

BIG fan of Guy Forget - what an elegant player he was! Shame about the frames but it's good they're with someone who appreciates them!