Clay Court GOAT - Page 2

ubermeyer · 10-10-2009, 09:34 PM

1. Borg
2. Nadal

timnz · 10-10-2009, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopin

Don't the TW Historians want to annoint Max Decugis as the GOAT of clay?

Nope. His 8 wins were in French Club member only entries in the French Championship (which was what the tournament was like until 1924). Hence no international competition in terms of those titles.

I don't know if he entered the World Hard Court Championship (Which started in 1912) but I know he didn't win that tournament (which was open to International Competitors).

But you are just teasing aren't you?

Got to hand it to Decugis for longevity though. He first made the French Championship final in 1902 and last made the final in 1923 - 21 years later.

Idzznew · 10-10-2009, 11:06 PM

This is what I have of Decugis at the moment (www.tennisarchives.com), still adding results all the time of course!

Alex

Maxime Omer (Max) Decugis

Name: Maxime Omer (Max)
Family name: Decugis
Nationality: France
Gender:
Had: 95 years
Date of birth: September 24, 1882
Place of birth: Paris, France
Date of death: September 6, 1978
Place of death: Biot, France
Professional:

Stats
Matches in database: 100
Victories in database: 70
Tournaments won in database: 2

Results

1910 Monte Carlo
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Routledge, H.B. (6-3 6-1)
Round 3 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Good, F. (6-0 6-1)
Quarterfinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Kleinschroth, Robert (6-4 6-1)
Semifinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Kleinschroth, Heinrich (6-2 6-4)
Final Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Ritchie, Major Josiah George (6-3 6-0 6-0)

1911 Wimbledon
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Larsen, Erik Øckenholt (7-9 6-3 6-3 6-0)
Round 3 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Bentley, A.L. (6-2 6-3 6-1)
Round 4 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Gore, Arthur William Charles (Wentworth) (2-6 6-4 6-4 8-6)
Quarterfinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Heath, Rodney W. (10-8 6-4 7-5)
Semifinals Dixon , Charles Percy d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (6-2 5-7 6-2 6-3)

1911 Monte Carlo
Round 1 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Wagner, Basil (6-1 6-4)
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Bostwick, A.C. (6-0 6-0)
Quarterfinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Ritchie, Major Josiah George (6-0 6-1)
Semifinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Rahe , Friedrich Wilhelm (6-3 7-5)
Final Wilding, Anthony Frederick (Tony) d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (5-7 1-6 6-3 6-0 6-1)
1912 Wimbledon
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Thomas, George A. (6-2 6-0 6-3)
Round 3 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Ross, A.J. (6-0 6-1 7-5)
Round 4 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Doust, Stanley Norwood (6-4 6-3 7-5)
Quarterfinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Roper-Barrett, Herbert (6-3 7-5 4-6 6-4)
Semifinals Gobert , André Maurice Henri d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (6-3 6-3 1-6 4-6 6-4)

1912 Monte Carlo
Round 1 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Hick, Mark D. (6-3 6-2 )
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Zambaux, ? (6-0 6-2)
Quarterfinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Allen, E.R. (Roy) (6-2 6-2)
Semifinals Wilding, Anthony Frederick (Tony) d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (9-11 7-5 6-1)

1912 World hardcourt championships
Round 1 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Aranyi, I. (6-2 6-1 6-0)
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Tapscott, Eric (6-3 6-1 6-0)
Quarterfinals Froitzheim, Otto d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (6-3 6-4 4-6 6-4)

1913 Wimbledon
Round 1 White, M.R.L. d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (w.o.)

1913 Monte Carlo
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. von Boxberg, ? (6-1 6-0)
Round 3 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Rahe , Friedrich Wilhelm (7-5 4-6 6-4)
Quarterfinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Murray, C.W. (7-5 6-0)
Semifinals Wilding, Anthony Frederick (Tony) d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (3-6 6-0 6-3)

1913 World hardcourt championships
Round 1 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Lemaire de Warzeé, Willie (6-2 6-3 6-4)
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Gault, Georges (6-4 6-0 6-2)
Quarterfinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. von Wessely, Curt (2-6 7-9 6-4 6-4 6-1)
Semifinals Wilding, Anthony Frederick (Tony) d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (6-0 6-3 3-6 4-6 6-3)

1914 Wimbledon
Round 1 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Thol, S.F. (6-2 6-2 6-1)
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Aitken, Harold I.P. (6-2 6-1 6-3)
Round 3 Davson, Perival May d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (6-4 4-6 6-1 6-3)

1914 Monte Carlo
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Zels, O.H. (w.o.)
Round 3 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Lyle, C.E. Leonard (6-2 5-7 6-2)
Quarterfinals Kleinschroth, Robert d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (6-4 6-4)

1914 Cannes championships
Round 1 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. de Coubasch, V. (6-2 6-2)
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Du Pasquier, P. (6-1 6-1)
Quarterfinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Boelling, F. (6-3 7-5)
Semifinals Brookes, Norman Everard d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (6-2 6-3)

1914 Riviera championships
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Simond, George Miéville (6-4 6-1)
Quarterfinals Lowe, Francis Gordon d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (w.o.)

1914 Nice
Round 1 Lowe, Francis Gordon d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (9-7 6-0)

1914 South of France championships
Round 1 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Lippmann, S. (6-1 6-0)
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Nickerson, Hoffman (6-1 6-3)
Round 3 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. von Lepel, Baron (6-1 6-3)
Quarterfinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Sturtz, H. (6-2 6-0)
Semifinals Lowe, Francis Gordon d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (6-2 6-2)

1914 Cannes Carlton 2nd meeting
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Starkovitch, A. (6-3 6-3)
Quarterfinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Biddle, Craig (6-4 6-4)
Semifinals Wilding, Anthony Frederick (Tony) d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (6-4 6-2)

1914 Cannes Métropole
Round 1 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Dunlop, Alfred Wallace (2-6 6-3 6-1)
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Hope, Charles (6-0 6-0)
Quarterfinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Cozon, G. (6-3 6-1)
Semifinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Lowe, Francis Gordon (6-1 7-5)
Final Brookes, Norman Everard d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (4-6 6-1 6-2 6-1)

1914 World hardcourt championships
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Aranyi, I. (6-2 6-1 6-0)
Round 3 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. De Borman, Paul (6-1 6-0 6-2)
Quarterfinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Von Kehrling, Bela (6-3 5-7 6-3 6-2)
Semifinals Wilding, Anthony Frederick (Tony) d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (6-1 6-2 6-1)

1919 Wimbledon
Round 1 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Thol, S.F. (6-4 6-0 6-4)
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Crawford, F.R.L. (Leighton) (6-2 4-6 5-7 10-8 6-1)
Round 3 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Grace, C.S. (6-0 6-1 6-3)
Round 4 Kingscote, Algernon Robert Fitzhardinge (Algie) d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (6-2 4-6 4-6 8-6 8-6)

1919 Monte Carlo
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Henley, W.G. (w.o.)
Quarterfinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Brown, J.Stacey (6-1 6-1)
Semifinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Manset, G. (6-2 6-0)
Final Mishu, Nicolae d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (6-2 6-0)

1919 Cannes Carlton
Semifinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Mishu, Nicolae (6-3 6-2)
Final Watters, Douglas S. d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (w.o.)

1919 Cannes championships
Semifinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Brown Jr., J.S. (6-1 6-0)
Final Mishu, Nicolae d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (6-8 6-4 4-6 6-3 6-0)

1919 Riviera championships
Semifinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Relacom, L. (6-0 6-0)
Final Mishu, Nicolae d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (6-3 6-2 10-12 2-6 7-5)

1919 South of France championships
Semifinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Albarran, Pierre (3-6 6-3 6-3)
Final Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Mishu, Nicolae (6-3 6-2 6-1)

1920 Wimbledon
Round 1 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Davson, A.W. (6-0 6-1 6-3)
Round 2 Drew, Alexander S. d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (6-4 9-7 6-8 6-2)

1920 World hardcourt championships
Round 1 Hirsch, Pierre d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (7-5 7-5 6-4)

1920 Barcelona
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Alonso de Areyzaga, Manuel (4-6 6-0 6-1)
Quarterfinals Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Quirante, ? (6-0 6-1)
Semifinals Dupont, Marcel d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (6-2 6-3)

1923 World hardcourt championships
Round 1 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Mishu, Nicolae (w.o.)
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Barbas, R. (6-4 7-5 3-6 6-2)
Round 3 Washer, Jean d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (6-1 6-1 6-2)

1925 Roland Garros
Round 1 Olivares, ? d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (w.o.)

1925 US Lawn tennis championships
Round 1 Chapin Jr., Alfred H. d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (w.o.)

1926 Wimbledon
Round 1 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Crawford, F.R.L. (Leighton) (2-6 6-4 8-6 1-6 7-5)
Round 2 Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) d. Greville, T. George (6-3 7-5 4-6 6-4)
Round 3 Kingsley, Charles d. Decugis, Maxime Omer (Max) (6-2 6-2 9-7)

timnz · 10-10-2009, 11:29 PM

This is great. What is interesting is that in many matches he pushed Wilding hard (Wilding was the best clay courter from circa 1910 to 1914).

hoodjem · 10-11-2009, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timnz

No love for Muster?

I am in pretty much agreement over your top ten. I'd put Muster around 11th on your list, and I'd put Kuerten above Lacoste. I realise that this is all subjective opinion though.

Muster who? Just kidding.
Muster won only a single FO and seven other clay court titles, including Rome (three times) and Monte Carlo (three times), and 40 total clay court titles.
1. Borg
2. Nadal
3. Rosewall
4. Cochet
5. Lendl
6. Wilander
7. Laver
8. Lacoste
9. Kuerten
10. Borotra
11. Drobny
12. Santana
13. Gimeno
14. Vilas
15. Federer
16. Muster
17. Courier
18. Bruguera

hoodjem · 10-11-2009, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timnz

I'd put Kuerten above Lacoste.

Lacoste has three French titles in singles (plus two runner-up), two in doubles (plus one runner-up), a bronze medal in doubles (on clay), and six Davis Cup (world championship) titles against Tilden and Johnston (not all on clay).

Kuerten has three French titles in singles, and 14 other clay court titles (including two at Monte Carlo, one at Rome, and one at Hamburg).

Tough call.

Vilas has one FO title (plus three runners-up), one USO title on clay in 1977, and 41 other clay court titles (including one each at Monte Carlo, Rome, and Hamburg).

Federer has one FO title (plus three runners-up), and 9 total clay court titles (including 4 at Hamburg, two runners-up at Rome, and three runners-up at Monte Carlo).

DarthFederer · 10-12-2009, 05:01 PM

Nadal is the best

Federer should be at least be in the top 15

hoodjem · 10-12-2009, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarthFederer

Federer should be at least be in the top 15

OK, make a case. We'll listen.

timnz · 10-12-2009, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarthFederer

Nadal is the best

Federer should be at least be in the top 15

If you don't ask me why do you rate Nadal above Borg? Looking at Achievements Borg is still a bit ahead of Nadal on Clay I would have thought.

Borgforever · 10-13-2009, 01:00 AM

Clay court GOAT IMO:

I give a slight edge to Bear against all others -- although that is very debatable -- but here's my red clay top tier GOATs:

Björn Borg, Ken Rosewall, Rafael Nadal, H. L. Doherty, René Lacoste, Tony Wilding, Henri Cochet.

hoodjem · 10-13-2009, 03:26 AM

^^^Cochet and Lacoste (I rate Cochet a bit higher), yes absolutely!

I know too little about Wilding and H.L., although you are helping that a lot.

borg number one · 10-24-2009, 06:04 PM

See the best Clay Courter of all time on video:

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/25046593/ (Bud Collins on Borg/Nadal on Clay)

Borg-Gerulitas ('80 FO Final)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGvgXpuSKaE

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...+Vilas&search_ type=&aq=f (Borg Vilas '75 FO Final)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSDaYzKOxU8
(Borg Vilas '78 FO Final)

Borg-Lendl ('81 FO Final)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW4z0FnUz4o
Borg-Orantes (1974 Final)

Borg-Pecci ('79 FO Final)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGMGnjiBgMY

JoelDali · 10-24-2009, 06:32 PM

[quote=borg number one;4052892]
Borg-Lendl ('81 FO Final)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW4z0FnUz4o
QUOTE]

One of the greatest matches on clay of all time.

wyutani · 10-24-2009, 06:43 PM

1. Borg
2. Nadal
3. Rosewall
4. Cochet
5. Lendl
6. Wilander
7. Laver
8. Lacoste
9. Kuerten
10. Borotra
11. Drobny
12. Santana
13. Gimeno
14. Vilas
15. Federer
16. Courier
17. Muster

hoodjem · 10-30-2009, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wyutani

1. Borg
2. Nadal
3. Rosewall
4. Cochet
5. Lendl
6. Wilander
7. Laver
8. Lacoste
9. Kuerten
10. Borotra
11. Drobny
12. Santana
13. Gimeno
14. Vilas
15. Federer
16. Courier
17. Muster

Looks quite good to me. I can accept that Fed was better on clay than Muster or Courier.

David_86 · 10-30-2009, 09:34 AM

Borg was so far ahead of his rivals on clay from 77-81 and this really was the clay court era. So many tournaments played on clay and players whose strongest surface was clay. All those big North American tournaments played on green clay throughout the summer, the 2 big Spanish touraments in autumn. Nowadays they have only kept the spring clay court season and added a relatively small European summer season.

Sam F · 10-31-2009, 12:21 AM

To me, there are a few ways to discuss this:

1- Who has the best record overall
2- Who was most dominant at a given time
3- Who would win if they all played today

What's interesting to me is how the French often seems to have someone who the field and world believe and accept will win. Often he does. I thought a lot of players gave up before the match against Courier in '91. It was almost a cakewalk for him. Lendl had a year or two like that (except Wilander never threw int he towel early). Kuerten's 3rd FO definitely seemed like this. Nadal 1-4 FO were this way. Kinda odd how this mentality sinks in there.

If we talking about the most dominant year, Muster in '95 cannot be discounted. Also, remember he lost a lot of time with that terrible injury when he was pinned b/t two car bumpers. I really don't care how quickly they say he came back, even though any competitive tennis after only 6 months is astonishing, he took him much longer to get back to full strength and confidence.

Regardless, I'm surprised Courier and Bruguera aren't mentioned as yet. Each won back to back FO. If you go by career record, that's better in a lot of ways than Muster.

borg number one · 11-03-2009, 05:37 AM

See this interesting "Bleacher Report" article about the greatest clay court player of all time:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...er-on-clayever

See this excerpt about Borg vs. Nadal:

"Borg is essentially a gold standard measuring tool for any modern player's success. He was a constant professional that made his game work on any surface. But it's no secret he loved the clay.

He carried an 86 percent winning mark for his career, 245-39, and won 30 titles. His four consecutive French Open titles were only recently matched by Nadal. His six career crowns at Roland Garros are still an ATP record, for now.

Still not as prolific of a winning percentage as Rafael, but Rafael has not finished with his career yet.

The right-hander from Sodertalje was one of the first to use a two-handed backhand on tour, much like the Raging Bull uses today. Apart from the differences in handedness, their similarities are eerie.

* Both are athletic baseliners with great backhands.
* Both use a considerable amount of topspin as a primary weapon.
* Both commit a very slim number of errors.
* Both can outlast anybody on tour in a five-set match.
* Both are cool, collected, and soft-spoken both on and off the court.
* Both have a very underrated, yet extraordinarily effective serve.

And so far, they have both adapted their game to the grasses of Wimbledon. Well, Borg did anyway. It is still to be seen if Nadal can have the kind of success that Borg did.

Borg beat some terrific players for the French title: Manuel Orantes, Vilas, Ilie Nastase, and Lendl. Nadal has mainly abused Federer at Roland Garros. He also beat Mariano Puerta in 2005, who had never advanced past the second round of any Slam previous to that.

Verdict: Toss-up."

Michael Bluth · 11-06-2009, 02:09 PM

Just playing devil's advocate, but Muster was more dominant at his peak in 95 than Courier or Bruguera at their peaks. Courier's 92 French Open was pretty dominant too though.

Ripper014 · 11-06-2009, 02:27 PM

1. 2006 Nadal
2. 1977 Vilas
3. 1978 Borg

10-10-2009, 11:29 PM	#24
timnz Hall Of Fame Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 2,648	Decugis This is great. What is interesting is that in many matches he pushed Wilding hard (Wilding was the best clay courter from circa 1910 to 1914).

10-13-2009, 03:26 AM	#31
hoodjem Legend Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Bierlandt Posts: 9,964	^^^Cochet and Lacoste (I rate Cochet a bit higher), yes absolutely! I know too little about Wilding and H.L., although you are helping that a lot. __________________ The smart man thinks he knows a lot; the wise man is aware that he knows little.

10-24-2009, 06:04 PM	#32
borg number one Legend Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,043	See the best Clay Courter of all time on video: http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/25046593/ (Bud Collins on Borg/Nadal on Clay) Borg-Gerulitas ('80 FO Final) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGvgXpuSKaE http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...+Vilas&search_ type=&aq=f (Borg Vilas '75 FO Final) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSDaYzKOxU8 (Borg Vilas '78 FO Final) Borg-Lendl ('81 FO Final) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW4z0FnUz4o Borg-Orantes (1974 Final) Borg-Pecci ('79 FO Final) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGMGnjiBgMY __________________ Borg never pointed to himself. He never even seemed to care if anyone read the advertisements. — Tom Callahan

10-24-2009, 06:32 PM	#33
JoelDali Legend Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 8,949	[quote=borg number one;4052892] Borg-Lendl ('81 FO Final) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW4z0FnUz4o QUOTE] One of the greatest matches on clay of all time. __________________ There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.

10-24-2009, 06:43 PM	#34
wyutani Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: hong kong Posts: 4,746	1. Borg 2. Nadal 3. Rosewall 4. Cochet 5. Lendl 6. Wilander 7. Laver 8. Lacoste 9. Kuerten 10. Borotra 11. Drobny 12. Santana 13. Gimeno 14. Vilas 15. Federer 16. Courier 17. Muster __________________ Western Grip, Counter-puncher Lefty... Dunlop Maxply Mcenroe (Serve), Dunlop Aerogel 4D 300 Tour (Return)...