Clay Court GOAT

[CyBorg]

Originally Posted by jean pierre

Nations cup in Dusseldorf was not a mickey mouse event. It's just before the French + and players played for their country. I saw the match Borg-Vilas, and Borg played very hard and seriously.

Maybe a bit harsh of me. But, yes, it was played just before the French and that speaks for itself. It was a minor event.

[Manus Domini]

Originally Posted by President

I've heard Robin Soderling called many things, but never before a counterpuncher

Ehh, one-dimensional base-liner, counter-puncher, same thing lol

maybe I was generilizing (why can I not spell that word ever?) a bit too much, but my point still stands.

[Manus Domini]

Originally Posted by kiki

Thanks for the offer, but I just refuse it¡¡ .Just think that being elderly than you are is the price you have to pay for seeing Rosewall at, almost his best.The great thing is watching him at the second row, closely enough to catch up that unbelievable BH techniche; and volleying and approach shot techniche by that matter.

I´ve said many times, and I still keep it, that if I could chose a teacher for developing my game and just playing for fun, I would always stick with Rosewall ( though I know I´d be frustrated not to be able to do the same things Muscless did on court).

I wish he went in a time machine and came back as his younger self just to dominate this tour lol

Originally Posted by kiki

Man you´re talking about the peak of the golden era of tennis.It was great at the early 70´s, superb at the early 80´s, then slided back to just great at the beggining of the 90´s.Ever since, it´s gone backwards and backwards, even tough guys like Fed ( for his talent) and Nadal ( for his physical and menthal assets) make it still watchable.

Yeah, doesn't mean I don't want a new Golden Age lol

[President]

Originally Posted by Manus Domini

Ehh, one-dimensional base-liner, counter-puncher, same thing lol

maybe I was generilizing (why can I not spell that word ever?) a bit too much, but my point still stands.

A counterpuncher is someone who typically plays a defensive role in a rally, and looks to either capitalize from his opponents error or turn defense into offence.

I think if we were to actually study their matches, you would find that Soderling is a lot more aggressive than even Federer lol. Federer can play some defense on the baseline at least, and doesn't try end the point on every other shot.

[Manus Domini]

Originally Posted by President

A counterpuncher is someone who typically plays a defensive role in a rally, and looks to either capitalize from his opponents error or turn defense into offence.

I think if we were to actually study their matches, you would find that Soderling is a lot more aggressive than even Federer lol. Federer can play some defense on the baseline at least, and doesn't try end the point on every other shot.

I wouldn't say that. Federer can play whichever style he wants. As I said, I was generalizing too much, but still EVERYONE is a boring baseliner basically, aside from a select few...

[abmk]

Originally Posted by Manus Domini

Ehh, one-dimensional base-liner, counter-puncher, same thing lol

maybe I was generilizing (why can I not spell that word ever?) a bit too much, but my point still stands.

you might want to learn the definition of a counter-puncher is before trying to go back too much into history !

[Manus Domini]

Originally Posted by abmk

you might want to learn the definition of a counter-puncher is before trying to go back too much into history !

I know the definition of counter-puncher; as I said I was generalizing too much. My point is they are all baseline-players, with one exception...

[kiki]

If Borg and Nadal are considered the greatest clay courters of modern tennis, then Cochet ( 4 French Open titles ) should by, by all means, considered the best clay court player of the pre war and post war era ( until the 1960´s, at least)

[hoodjem]

1. Borg
2. Nadal
3. Rosewall
4. Cochet
5. Lendl
6. Wilander

[BTURNER]

Amended for gender inclusion

Originally Posted by hoodjem

1. Borg/ Evert
2. Nadal/ Graf
3. Rosewall/ Lenglen
4. Cochet/ Wills
5. Lendl/ Seles
6. Wilander/ Court

[timnz]

Originally Posted by hoodjem

1. Borg
2. Nadal
3. Rosewall
4. Cochet
5. Lendl
6. Wilander

Cochet was a fine player no doubt. But I am curious why you would rate him higher than Wilding. Wilding was nearly unbeaten on clay for 5 years (more dominant than say Nadal has been the last 5 years). He won more clay court titles than anyone in history. Not sure Cochet, as good as he was is in that league. Cochet did win 5 majors on clay (the World Hard Court Championships in 1922 plus 4 1925+ French Championships) - but Wilding only had 2 Clay majors open to him (the 1913 and 1914 WHCC) and he won both (the 1912 WHCC wasn't officially a major - and he didn't compete in that tournament for some unknown reason) . All his wins on the French Riveria though were the defacto Clay majors of the day.

[newmark401]

Originally posted by BTURNER:

"1. Borg/Evert"

I'm not very good at these greatest/longest/shortest/fastest/best/worst-type lists, but I'd probably put Suzanne Lenglen at number one in the women's list because she didn't lose a match on clay after turning fifteen just at the time that she won the 1914 World Hard Court Championships in Paris.

In fact, after the 1914 WHCC she never lost a single set in about 250 singles matches played on clay mainly from 1919-26.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by hoodjem

1. Borg
2. Nadal
3. Rosewall
4. Cochet
5. Lendl
6. Wilander

This is a pretty good list.However, Laver,Lacoste,Pietrangeli and Santana are also solid candidates for the top ten in cc play history.Vilas,Bruguera,Kodes and Courier could aslo join an all time cc greats list.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by BTURNER

Amended for gender inclusion

I fully agree on the women´s side, and I´d complete it with Sanchez Vicario,Henin,Connolly and Sperling .Sanchez and Sperling won 3 titles at Paris and beat the hell out of the very best on a clay court.

[BTURNER]

Originally Posted by newmark401

Originally posted by BTURNER:

"1. Borg/Evert"

I'm not very good at these greatest/longest/shortest/fastest/best/worst-type lists, but I'd probably put Suzanne Lenglen at number one in the women's list because she didn't lose a match on clay after turning fifteen just at the time that she won the 1914 World Hard Court Championships in Paris.

In fact, after the 1914 WHCC she never lost a single set in about 250 singles matches played on clay mainly from 1919-26.

You may well be right. Its so hard for many to compare either the quality of the field, they played against as restricted as it was to practicalities of the era , and the completeness of the data must be somewhat suspect by the nature and quality of the evidence you are left to reconstruct with. The fact is modern tennis leaves modern masses of records in a variety of forms on top players or even junior players at small events. Not so back before Suzanne was a tennis super diva. its also true that whatever evidence you can acquire, is as likely to inform posterity of a loss as a win and we are obliged to use what we have. The further back we go the more nervous I get that I don't have my facts straight or wise judgment on their proper use. I think that is a basic reason many here won't include Suzanne or Helen at all, but that is our insecurity not yours

[kishnabe]

Originally Posted by hoodjem

1. Borg
2. Nadal
3. Rosewall
4. Cochet
5. Lendl
6. Wilander

Rosewall should be number one....Won like 10 French opens...Borg number 2 and Nadal 3!

Why is Henri Cochet better than Lendl?

[Manus Domini]

Originally Posted by hoodjem

1. Borg
2. Nadal
3. Rosewall
4. Cochet
5. Lendl
6. Wilander

1 Rosewall
2 Borg
3 Nadal

that's the real top 3

[borg number one]

I'd go with Rosewall at #3, perhaps #2. You could definitely make an argument for Rosewall, or Nadal, or Borg in my opinion. I would put Bjorn Borg at the very top though. Nadal has several years left, so that'll be interesting to watch. See this clip on Borg and the French Open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY03v...833364FB879074 (Heroes of Roland Garros clip)

[kiki]

Originally Posted by kishnabe

Rosewall should be number one....Won like 10 French opens...Borg number 2 and Nadal 3!

Why is Henri Cochet better than Lendl?

In terms of results, Cochet won 4 FO titles to Lendl´s 3.

[TMF]

Originally Posted by kiki

In terms of results, Cochet won 4 FO titles to Lendl´s 3.

Key words here. Saying Cochet > Lendl is similar to say Emmitt Smith > Barry Sanders in terms of resuts.